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I had been throwing pretty well on the course, but I think I've started to lose the feel for whatever was going good for me. It looks like I've regressed a bit in terms of keeping my weight moving/not taking too large of a crossover step? Overall it seems like my posture is a little out of whack, with a lot of leaning over the top of my plant.
Here are what are probably the three best throws I got today. The distance was ok, not bad, not great, but releases were all over the place - too high, pulled to the right, anything in between.
I rewatched kick the can, so I think I know what you mean by kick the can with both feet - I'm a little confused how it should feel, as when I do that my left foot tends to get out in front of me, at least the way I'm trying to kick the crossover step can.
I think I know now where I'm going wrong in the plant step, but that just isolates my issue to getting my crossover step working, so I can be set up to properly leverage off my left foot. I went back to my last and best attempts at the "single dragon drill", which I think is the best my footwork has looked, and what I notice is that the front foot doesn't plant as the body's momentum is going down towards the ground, but as it's going almost more up and towards the target. Just like kick the can, it sort of follows a swooping motion, where the momentum goes down towards the ground, and then sort of glides above the ground and kicks forward. It's like I'm sticking my foot in the ground before I have a chance to kick the can.
Anyway, I see that, or I at least see something that makes sense visually to me, and it seems like my crossover just isn't putting my left leg into this position:
where gravity can help to make that move happen. Maybe my left leg needs to be more extended? Maybe that's the intended effect of kicking the can with the left leg/crossover step?
I'm guessing you are leaning away from target going into the left foot kick/x-step. The kick should be catching up underneath you. Lean into the target, so the left foot kick changes your tilt in the air.
I'm guessing you are leaning away from target going into the left foot kick/x-step. The kick should be catching up underneath you. Lean into the target, so the left foot kick changes your tilt in the air.
Thanks, yeah this definitely helped! I think I was also starting to extend my back hip in the backswing a bit. Still grinding away at it, but I think I'm closer to where I was at least.
I'm still trying to connect the dragon drill with the x-step, and still having a lot of trouble with it - every once in a while it will click, mostly it doesn't. I was doing some footwork yesterday, trying to keep my feet under me rather than getting leaned back, which I assumed was probably the source of my issue - but I actually made some headway there I think, and I still found myself struggling to get the feel of the drill.
What I find so helpful about the drill is it's taught me the feel for planting braced on my front side, and shifting from behind in my stride. Here's a sort of half-assed attempt just reminding myself of the feel before I tried a mock throw:
but then when it comes to the x-step, something's missing.
I think I'm getting the stride part ok, but I just can't seem to find the right way to connect with the ground. My hips stay closed off and I just sort of wind up reaching for the ground. I know it's tough to see how it would have worked out in a real swing, because I had no intention of throwing in this clip, but it definitely did not feel like I was in a powerful position here.
Another reason it's hard to feel the connection between the drill and a real x-step is the difference in when/how my upper body is set up - the drill has me turned back from the start, so I can just let my upper body fall, and gravity and the torque from my lower body decide when my upper body comes through. I like the big exaggerated pump for getting myself moving down the teepad, but it does mean I have to quickly bring the disc back much later than I do in the drill, which creates a much different feeling.
I checked out some video of others, and a couple things stuck out to me. First off, it looks like I probably needed to keep more pressure in my left instep, judging by how I slid off my left heel, and that might have helped to get my hips unstuck too. Second, I noticed some things I hadn't seen before with people whose throws look very dragon-like:
Garrett:
and Ricky:
both turn back much earlier than I have been, really before they even get on their left foot. I would have thought that was way too early to turn back, but maybe it's something I need to try.
Paul:
turns back at a similar time as I have been, and he seems to have his hips really closed off at toe strike, same as mine. It almost seems to me like his off arm swim move is what's causing him to complete the shift to his front side? I know that idea has been discussed in the mcbeth swim move thread, but it's seeming to me right now like it's not just something that adds a bit of power, like I had imagined, but something that's actually essential to his mechanics working at all. Or maybe I'm just making too much of it! I don't really know.
Am I thinking along the right lines here, should I maybe try turning back earlier to get the correct feel? Or should I keep trying the more McBeth way, and try a swim move? Or is that a false dichotomy I've made up, and/or I'm missing something else? Any advice appreciated, and thanks!
x-step, right foot is stepping too far away which is pulling your rear foot off the ground before you plant. Your right foot needs to plant or kick the ground earlier or quicker. Not leaning away helps.
Pump - push your hand/bottom/sideways karate chop - forward against the wall.
Note how Dave drives his shoulder forward of hips like going into a backhand punch. You are doing the funky chicken.
Thanks! Ok I took a different tack here, trying to get more vertical, like Feldberg. I watched a bunch of GG clips and tried to go for that. I also tried to karate chop like Feldberg, but I was mostly focusing on footwork so it doesn't really look like it.
I ran into some other problems, like having a hard time getting all the way closed off with my upper body and opening up too early, but I think my plant is better. I was letting the ground catch me before, this time felt like decisively stepping through the ground. Sorry for the weird cramped apartment angle!
Gotcha! Yeah I have a tough time "letting go" in my apartment (fingers tend to hit tables), not sure if that's all it was but either way I'll need to film in a better spot and see how things actually look. Thanks!
Well I took this out to the field, and it definitely seemed to help! My lower body felt like it was adding more, stepping into the ground vs letting my plant land on the ground. Everything else was definitely a little messy though. Still leaned back a bit, and inconsistent upper body. Here are three pretty different throws:
This one just felt like a whiff, it's hard to say with the framerate but it seems like it might be this:
Not sure of the cause of that, though! I had a few like that.
This one really rocketed out of my hand, but it looks like I just got too leaned back, and it went too high.
This one seems like maybe the best overall - I realized right before this that I was turning my head forward too early, so I tried to cue myself to keep my head behind my arm, so I could only turn forward once the disc released.
I once again am having just a world of trouble not being leaned back, but I did get a couple with the Feldberg-like left arm and I like how it puts that arm in a good spot for swimming. Apart from that my main focus was on bracing really hard and early with my plant leg, and not turning my head to soon. Here are the best two throws I think:
One thing I'm a bit concerned about (apart from the usual tipping back problems) is that going frame by frame my upper arm angle seems to get sort of tight near the end of the swing. Like here:
It seems like if my chest is that far facing forward, shouldn't my arm have opened too? I don't know, could be wrong there. Thanks!
Alright, well I don't have drill videos, but I do have a little bit of progress I think. I was doing the doorframe drill without being able to film, and the feeling of "sitting" into the plant that I've always been so confused about - I always just wound up with a squishy plant leg - clicked for me, in the context of the butt wipe drill. I started sitting backwards into the plant while keeping my butt pinned to the imaginary wall, and I realized when I did that, my plant leg landed firm. It felt to me like I was finally able to get the feeling of the double dragon drill without doing the drill. I did some throws focusing on that, and I think it was promising!
Apart from the above, I was also trying to turn my back foot backwards slightly on the crossover step, to make it a bit easier to keep my toes rear of my center of mass. I think that helped a bit, even if it didn't get rid of the leaning problem completely. I also did try to reach back and not down, but that probably needs more work too. I felt pretty balanced, once I got comfortable. The second video is max effort, which I wanted to include because I usually cannot throw max effort at all without my form breaking down completely, and I think it still looked decent, so that was a plus.
Distance was just ok, not great, but I think maybe that has more to do with my upper body now? I can't put my finger on it, but something seems funky still with my arms/shoulders. Maybe it's my head coming around too early/not looking at the disc, not sure.
Update, I found one more video from yesterday which I had discounted at first because it was pretty off balance compared to the others. On second look though, it seems like my upper body looks much better here, even if the lower body is worse? Looks a bit more battering ram-like. It also appears the disc is coming out a tick faster even compared to the max effort one.
Here's a great tip for you (and a loooooot of other players too):
It's really difficult to kick the can and drift forward into the brace leg when you are tipping over the back leg into position. Right now you are doing the cross step and sticking that back leg to the ground then "falling" over it like if it were a stiff pole.
How would you be able to accelerate that motion with a stiff pole? How much can you control that fall? Imagine doing the pole vault in the picture and at the same time try to time it with throwing a ball. The rhythm will be different each time since you are creating a balancing act that's pretty difficult to control. When you do you will be too tall for too long through the cross step.
Mental que: Keep the back knee outside of your frame at all times, even during the cross step. If you do you will be able to control the drift much better. Kicking the can will be walk in the park. Weight shift will come more naturally and with better balance. There is so much to gain from getting that drift right, even when doing a stand still.
Try it until you find good balance in the cross step. It should feel like you are able to just float past the back leg instead of it feeling like a bump in the road that you have to pass over. You will find that you'll get much more hip depth and that the position you get into will feel more powerful and athletic, like a jump.
Compare some slow motions of pros with your own vids and look at your back leg and what it does to your form. The connection should be between the back hip and back foot with the knee kind of swiveling freely between for balance and drive.
