Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

Here's a great tip for you (and a loooooot of other players too):
It's really difficult to kick the can and drift forward into the brace leg when you are tipping over the back leg into position. Right now you are doing the cross step and sticking that back leg to the ground then "falling" over it like if it were a stiff pole.

How would you be able to accelerate that motion with a stiff pole? How much can you control that fall? Imagine doing the pole vault in the picture and at the same time try to time it with throwing a ball. The rhythm will be different each time since you are creating a balancing act that's pretty difficult to control. When you do you will be too tall for too long through the cross step.

Mental que: Keep the back knee outside of your frame at all times, even during the cross step. If you do you will be able to control the drift much better. Kicking the can will be walk in the park. Weight shift will come more naturally and with better balance. There is so much to gain from getting that drift right, even when doing a stand still.
Try it until you find good balance in the cross step. It should feel like you are able to just float past the back leg instead of it feeling like a bump in the road that you have to pass over. You will find that you'll get much more hip depth and that the position you get into will feel more powerful and athletic, like a jump.




Compare some slow motions of pros with your own vids and look at your back leg and what it does to your form. The connection should be between the back hip and back foot with the knee kind of swiveling freely between for balance and drive.

Thanks, yeah that's definitely been the goal! Just been a really hard thing to get down for some reason. I'll try the cue about keeping the back knee outside of the frame!

 

[Melonhusk]

I think I may have gotten some better results with my lower body, but if nothing else I tried something different!

That clip of Eagle linked above inspired me to try instead of just pumping my arms forward, almost counter rotating my upper half against my lower half. I'm not sure why that helped, but it definitely seemed to! I found I could feel more balanced pushing with my right foot, and placing my left foot behind my center of gravity to get more of that drift feeling. All other cues went out the window pretty much, because this made the throw feel super rushed to me, but I was surprised by how well everything else stayed together. My first throw using this cue I didn't think I had even turned back, it just felt like I faced forward the whole time - but I had.

Here's the first attempt, was pulled way right and I corrected the low backswing after, but felt pretty good.




I lot of the discs I had today fly best with a baby flex, and when I tried to throw anhyzer it seemed like my throwing shoulder would raise a bit, and my upper body would turn ahead of the disc? The disc did always catch up, which I guess is sort of what Paul's throws look like, so I'm not sure if this is bad or not an issue.




It seemed like my upper body looked a bit cleaner on hyzers.




This was my last throw - it seemed like my head was getting a bit eager to turn out in front of the throw so I tried cueing a swing from behind pendulum sort of feeling, not sure if it worked or if it helped or what, but it did look a bit different




I wish there wasn't a headwind when I threw, a lot of my discs were just dying in the air or turning into throllers, but some seemed to come out pretty fast. Not sure how much of an improvement this was! Seems like my upper body is still a bit suspect, and I know my left arm could be doing a lot more, just too many things to focus on. But hopefully this was some progress with the lower body. Thanks as always!

 

[Brychanus]

I have my eyes on your rear/drive leg again. I think you've adjusted the posture, but I'm not sure you're getting the pogo-like compress-decompress quite yet.

It's really hard to notice in high-level form because it's not a drastic compress/decompress in terms of distance covered like the image linked there. But I think that the "pogo" comparison is the best one we've shared around here.

When I work on my backswing in standstills, I learned to use a light to moderate weight to feel the leg compress as the rear hip is cocking. Weights help you get the sensation of the drive leg loading up/resisting collapse as it is swinging back, and that energy gets released/helps you spring forward into the plant step as you drift/stride/swing forward.

I had a really hard time with this. Hammer X-step in both directions really helped, and I've tried variants recently too since my legs have been one of my biggest struggles. I started doing Hammer X-step heavier kettlebells too recently, which really requires your legs to get "springy" to do it with control and rhythmically (though I recommend starting w/ hammers). You can also hop back and forth with Skaters, Ride the Bull with some oomph, etc. to gain the elusive Pogo Legs. Once you really encode the feel for the Pogo action you can start going uptempo.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok, I think I'm reading you. I don't know that the pogo analogy is totally clicking for me, but it's this:

and this:

vs this:

right?

It looks like I'm sort of floating over the top of my back leg, whereas Paul and Eagle are really coiling into it.

 

[sidewinder22]

As soon as you start, you are going into the funky chicken posture/spine extended, knees super bent.

Hinge from the hips, not the knees. Get your chest/shoulders more over your knees.

 

[Brychanus]

Ok, I think I'm reading you. I don't know that the pogo analogy is totally clicking for me, but it's this...

and this:
vs this:

right?

It looks like I'm sort of floating over the top of my back leg, whereas Paul and Eagle are really coiling into it.

You're onto it. See how much more powerful the balance and wire frame SW22 posted on Eagle looks. When you are in the correct posture it is easier to load/coil into the rear leg and unload/uncoil in the plant. Power of Posture!

 

[Melonhusk]

As soon as you start, you are going into the funky chicken posture/spine extended, knees super bent.

Hinge from the hips, not the knees. Get your chest/shoulders more over your knees.

I see, yeah it all just happens so fast for me right now. Feels like I counter rotate my upper and lower body so my hips turn back while my shoulders stay straight to the target, and if I do that, then I can place my back foot just far back enough that it's behind my center, and then before I can think about much else I catch myself with my plant and don't even barely have time to think about the swing. Is it supposed to happen that fast? Seems like with the hip hinge Paul and Eagle are able to sort of "sit" on their back leg longer.

 

[sidewinder22]

Maybe, I'm not sure the context you are describing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m

If you look at the ^ above pic, I could say you are sitting on your back leg too long, while Eagle has driven his rear hip forward ahead of everything - buttwipe.

The "thriller arms" or elbows are no bueno, weak. Your rear elbow is out and spilling the beverage and lead elbow is down and in, so both your shoulders are rotated targetward with chest open to target. Paul's rear elbow is down in and lead elbow is out and up, so both his shoulders are rotated away from target with chest closed to target like pushing/hitting against the wall.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

 

[Melonhusk]

Had a second today to get a quick practice swing video - I think I see that my back is still extended. But is this a better hip hinge? I also tried to eradicate thriller arms.




Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Swing forward over the front leg. You are spinning out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFO7J3AV5Y#t=4m30s

 

[hawgdriver]

Dude that's great you are addressing this before your timing habit evolves into a Better Call Saul one.

 

[Melonhusk]

Dude that's great you are addressing this before your timing habit evolves into a Better Call Saul one.

It's an unfortunate thread title

 

[Melonhusk]

Got back out there today after a while off from throwing, and I had a ton of time to think so I maybe got a little ambitious in terms of what to work on. I was trying to get that coiled up feeling in the backswing, and then swing over my front leg, all while maintaining a good buttwipe throughout.

This set of throws I was basically telling myself to balance on my back leg for as long as I could - it definitely got me a little deeper into that leg and it was probably the most powerful set of throws of the day, but I'm not sure I have it quite right yet.






This set of throws I had a good or at least better feel for swinging over my front leg, there were other flaws of course but it felt like a much "cleaner" swing path for my shoulder - oftentimes I'll feel a little twinge somewhere in my rotator cuff on a backhand, these felt totally fine.

 

[sidewinder22]

Slow your first step down, so you can accelerate on the x-step into plant.

 

[Melonhusk]

Slow your first step down, so you can accelerate on the x-step into plant.

Oh interesting, so would that mean that I'm delaying my back foot coming down until my hips travel further, or would I literally move slower during that step? Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Both

 

[Melonhusk]

I was having a really hard time getting the hang of making my first step slower while still keeping my feet moving under me, so I'm not sure I succeeded at all in that, but I did try a couple other things. I started really pushing my left foot into the ground as I took my crossover, instead of just weakly sinking into it, and I think that helped my posture look a bit better and kept my hips moving forward. I mainly tried to just get as deep into my legs as possible, trying to see how far ahead of my back knee I could push my hips before planting, and then just trying to relax my back muscles into that movement. I think it does look more relaxed than it has in the past, but I found myself throwing off a bent plant leg a lot of the time - maybe that's ok though. Results wise, didn't have very much power at all, and often a lot of visible OAT/accidental turnover out of the hand. Not sure what was causing that.

 

[sidewinder22]

First step is too backward and x-step is too far ahead of your mass and stride too long into plant.

You definitely got the hinge into the back hip, but your front foot leads your stride instead of your center. Need more Hershyzer.

 

[Brychanus]

Surrender your weight to gravity into the plant.

 

[Melonhusk]

First step is too backward and x-step is too far ahead of your mass and stride too long into plant.

You definitely got the hinge into the back hip, but your front foot leads your stride instead of your center. Need more Hershyzer.

I see what you mean, yeah. It almost doesn't even really make sense to me right now, how to push my hips forward enough without turning my hips like I do there. I mean maybe freak athletes aren't always the best example, but positions like this:

remain pretty elusive to me. When you say center, where is that exactly? I'm guessing somewhere around the hips or the core, but I'm curious.


Does Calvin turn back too far?



It seems like he gets his hips turned back pretty far pretty early, but he also clearly has a ton of momentum down the teepad. It's interesting, he and Seppo have pretty similar forms in a lot of ways.