Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[sidewinder22]

Move hips/pelvis/CoG in a circle one direction like using a hula hoop.

Jared "turns back early" and has similar form which is why I used him. Once the disc starts dropping, you have basically begun the forward swing.

 

[Melonhusk]

Worked on getting more buttwipe; I had started to feel part of my persistent posture issue was getting too much in my knees and quads. I think it did help! Things were still a bit inconsistent, but I tried to go for a feeling of moving over my heels but pushing through my toes, and when I got that I felt a lot more balance and control.

First attempts were a lot of focusing on footwork. I just tried to keep my shoulder moving downwards and forwards and not worry about my upper body too much, but the result was my shoulders had trouble turning back far enough - as well as my "reaching down" issue.



back view (I think with a little more shoulder turn in this one)



Pretty much every single shot was pulled very right like you can see above, probably has to do with shoulders but also I notice how far ahead of the swing my head wants to start coming forward. Maybe there's something else I'm missing though?

In the last few throws I tried to really toss my arm/upper body back to get my shoulders turned and get the disc levitating; It helped in terms of power for sure, and it actually felt better on my arm too, but it did introduce a lot of wildness - and I think didn't solve the larger issue that I'm probably just not swinging closed enough or over my front foot enough?



Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like the disc is going where you are telling it to and keeping it artificially wide. Your upper body is over toes like Simon on his right to left hyzers, but if you look at his "flat" or anhyzer/360, everything is turned/wound further back and Inside(Swing Drill) and swinging more on the leftward diagonal.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ahhhh I think I see what you mean. That feels very different, to put myself in the position Simon is in on the right - not necessarily how coiled back he is, that's fine, but my body feels a lot more upright than I'm used to. Something to play with, thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Been trying to work the inside swing in, along with butt wipe, not leaning back, and levitating the backswing. I had a couple throws yesterday that felt reeeally nice, probably the highest ratio of distance/effort I've ever had. They didn't go ludicrously far, but it felt like I had barely thrown them at all, so that was really cool to feel.

I think the levitating backswing was super important to those throws happening, and getting my feet and weight moving better; there was a certain moment where I relaxed and "let go" of the backswing that allowed those throws to happen. It was super tough to get consistently and made me realize I still definitely have unwanted tension/effort as I'm beginning my swing.

Anyway, here's a video of the best one:



I should have grabbed a behind the tee view, but I felt pretty good about the inside swing. I just imagined I was moving my body out of the way of my shoulder rather than reaching my shoulder back and away from my center like before, and really coiling everything upright and inside. Since I've been trying to incorporate that I haven't been pulling throws to the right nearly as much.

I'm noticing even on this throw that felt good, and certainly on the throws that felt worse I've got a bit of a rounding/opening early problem. At least that's what it looks like to me? It also looks like I'm tipping back a bit on that first step.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely looking better. Try driving off your right foot quicker into x-step, so your left foot doesn't land so far ahead of your body.

 

[Melonhusk]

Definitely looking better. Try driving off your right foot quicker into x-step, so your left foot doesn't land so far ahead of your body.

Thanks! Yeah looks like I started to get a bit tentative with that first step again.

 

[Brychanus]

Been trying to work the inside swing in, along with butt wipe, not leaning back, and levitating the backswing. I had a couple throws yesterday that felt reeeally nice, probably the highest ratio of distance/effort I've ever had. They didn't go ludicrously far, but it felt like I had barely thrown them at all, so that was really cool to feel.

I think the levitating backswing was super important to those throws happening, and getting my feet and weight moving better; there was a certain moment where I relaxed and "let go" of the backswing that allowed those throws to happen. It was super tough to get consistently and made me realize I still definitely have unwanted tension/effort as I'm beginning my swing.

Anyway, here's a video of the best one:


I should have grabbed a behind the tee view, but I felt pretty good about the inside swing. I just imagined I was moving my body out of the way of my shoulder rather than reaching my shoulder back and away from my center like before, and really coiling everything upright and inside. Since I've been trying to incorporate that I haven't been pulling throws to the right nearly as much.

I'm noticing even on this throw that felt good, and certainly on the throws that felt worse I've got a bit of a rounding/opening early problem. At least that's what it looks like to me? It also looks like I'm tipping back a bit on that first step.

A world of difference in that throw!

 

[Melonhusk]

A world of difference in that throw!

Thanks, and thanks for your help as well! Crazy what finally beginning to learn the correct balance/posture does for everything else

 

[Melonhusk]

I've been in a place for a while where my lower body has not been a huge catastrophe (still working on it!); it seems solid enough that I've started giving more attention to my upper body. I landed on this motion that's different than what I've done in the past, almost sort of feels like one of those windmill drills. I like it in that it's easy to feel the dingle arm, and it helps keep me upright, rather than leaned over my toes like I was a few posts ago. Here's a side view of one of the better throws:



Definitely still work to do in making sure I keep my cog ahead of my feet during the x step; I'm always focusing on it but some throws are better than others. I think I am getting better at "levitating" my arm vs some of my old "reach down" habits, so I'm happy about that.

It seems like I'm sort of struggling with my release right now? Every once in a while I can really feel the inertia of the disc around my fingers, but on most of these throws yesterday the disc was just sort of flopping out of my grip, often coupled with nose up issues. I don't know if fixing some other things has made the disc harder to hold onto, or disrupted my fingers' muscle memory regarding when to pinch/push?



Another problem was, as usual, pulling shots. Here are some behind the back views: I can see why one disc goes right and one goes straight, I just have no idea what the catalyst is; where does the mistake begin? On that straight shot, I was actually trying to replicate a shot pulled right - not that I was trying to pull it right, I was just trying to avoid "correcting" anything - and out of the blue it just went perfectly straight.





Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are extending your arm back too early and start going forward early.

Also your arm is rotating externally into the power pocket instead of internally. Guys like GG that hold the disc vertical(still not as vertical as you), rotate it more vertical(internal) into the pocket and then rotate out flat.

 

[Melonhusk]

Gotcha, yeah that whole getting the wing down through the pocket thing has never made sense to my body when I've tried it, so there's gotta be a big piece I'm missing there. I did get a chance to get out and throw a round trying to get more external in the backswing and then really get internal in the swing (I just tried to cue myself to get my elbow out in front in that "hugging the disc" posture), and I had a few very powerful 90 degree griplocks but not too much luck besides that. I think I might have been getting too rotational and not swinging forward over my front leg.

Part of what has been working well for me has been finally forgetting about my arm and focusing on the swing as just doing a battering ram with my shoulder low over my front leg - that's allowed me to get my arm more relaxed. Now I need to retrain my arm, and it's bringing more tension back into the picture, at least I think. Is there a good cue/drill to focus on relaxing, but also kind of holding onto the idea in my head that I'm really going to internally rotate my arm during the swing? Could just be I need more reps and more slow motion practice. Anyway, thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Have you ever played basketball? The shoulders load internally/elbows go out to press/throw/bounce the ball back out on a chest pass.

 

[Melonhusk]

I have played very poorly! That analogy makes sense though, thanks.

I was hoping to work on my upper body yesterday but I wound up having to troubleshoot my lower body/upper body posture instead. I kept coming over the top and not getting onto my front leg properly; I can see what's going on I think, but I can't always tell why it's going on. Am I just coming forward with my swing too early, before my weight has transferred? It looks like I may be sort of leaning backwards towards the target at the top of my backswing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ride the Bull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

 

[Melonhusk]

I've been tinkering with my upper body, and to attempt to get my shoulder rotating external to internal I decided to try throwing like GG does. I've done that before, but I've never tried to get the left arm karate chop thing going, which I realize now is kind of the key to the entire thing.



I switched to a more vertical x step as well, which I'm definitely not getting right yet - I wound up totally leaned back. I think I need to try hopping "over" my left foot more, rather than just trying to get "to" my left foot. The rest of the throw felt ok though, I'm definitely having fewer lower body issues once I get past the x step. It feels like the double dragon drill, where the posture sort of takes care of itself.

I think my left arm timing is maybe a little late? I don't feel like I quite got that right, but some things I was doing definitely had more power in them than others. One thing I realized is the move with the left arm isn't straight down, like I thought - I had much better results trying to slap someone standing to the left of me, if that makes sense. The "down" part followed naturally from that.

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree. You need to drive forward off the rear foot. You are stepping too closed and pigeon toed.

 

[Melonhusk]

Continuing to try to copy GG's throw:

Think I made some progress, things got easier when I really sat down and tried to copy exactly every little thing he does. For instance, the backwards pump he does with his left arm happens way earlier than I thought, and it wound up being a key piece to getting my weight moving forward the right way in the x-step. I definitely don't quite have that part down yet, but I felt something when I got the left arm backwards pump and then the right arm disc pump synced up just the right way. It's crazy the way the left and right arms mirror each other slightly out of sync - he pumps the left arm behind and then levitates it up as he's pumping the right arm forward - then as he levitates the right arm the left arm swings back down, and then the right arm swings forward. Simple yet also a lot of moving parts! Even my bad throws felt very natural and easy though; I feel like this throw really engages the entire body in an intuitive way and I like that about it.

Getting my left arm looser and heavier feeling helped too, but I still don't think I'm quite doing the right thing with it once it's time to throw. I can tell his arm karate chops much earlier than mine, but I haven't yet figured out how to make that happen. I also kept struggling with my left arm going straight up in the air, even though it never felt above head height to me.

Here are two differently wonky throws - one with my best overall throw, and then one where I think I got the closest on my x-step (and then my balance immediately fell apart).





Thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Still plugging away, had some varied levels of success over a couple days. I'm feeling like my weight is getting to my front leg pretty consistently now, though I'm still inconsistent with how tipped back I am day to day. My left arm feels like it's really become a glaring problem.

I started off actually throwing pretty hard, but shanking everything way high and right. Seems like I wasn't turned far back enough, and it also seems like my left arm is coming down way too late.



After checking that out against video of GG, I tucked my left elbow in and tried to just drop it straight down behind me, trying to time the drop as I was landing on my right foot. This was really tricky for me; the disc kept wanting to come forward the second I was bringing my left arm down, it was like by telling my left arm to do something I was also making my right arm tense up.





From this point on my throws kind of sucked; I was throwing straight but I think it was just subconscious compensation as everything felt like an early release. Still seemed like my left arm timing was only giving me power up and right of the intended line.

After looking at all of that I went out yesterday with the hopes of trying to get my left arm down earlier, and also trying to bring my backswing back more "under", as the way I was taking the disc back looks sort of awkward (and often does in my throw). I didn't accomplish either goal at all, and my x step regressed a bit, but I did get this nice feeling of loading and then relaxing my shoulder into a triangle between my shoulder and two feet which got me more distance even though things looked pretty sloppy overall.



Not sure whether to keep chasing the GG left arm thing; the few times I've felt the timing click it's felt super easy and powerful and intuitive, but right now I don't know if maybe it's best to just keep my left hand on my quad.

 

[Dochammer]

Ha, the thumbnail for the second video is convincing of GG's form. You are right the off-arm looks off.

You look like you're pushing down with your left arm, like you are trying to get out of a pool or climbing on a box. GG looks like he pushing off a ski pole, which reminds me of the lead arm when uphill skating skiing. I realize this might mean nothing, even with the images below, if you've never skied... Though I feel the imagery illustrates the point that you are (possibly) "sending momentum" up by pushing down while GG is "sending momentum" forward while pushing back.

https://imgur.com/a/eDssL93

https://imgur.com/lL7Vr6U