Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

Ha, the thumbnail for the second video is convincing of GG's form. You are right the off-arm looks off.

You look like you're pushing down with your left arm, like you are trying to get out of a pool or climbing on a box. GG looks like he pushing off a ski pole, which reminds me of the lead arm when uphill skating skiing. I realize this might mean nothing, even with the images below, if you've never skied... Though I feel the imagery illustrates the point that you are (possibly) "sending momentum" up by pushing down while GG is "sending momentum" forward while pushing back.

https://imgur.com/a/eDssL93

https://imgur.com/lL7Vr6U

That's interesting, thanks! That actually speaks to what's been one of my big internal struggles with this, what essentially that left arm move even is. It's a swim move, but also a drop, but also internal shoulder rotation, but which of those is driving the power? Or is it all three? There's a really hard-throwing kid somewhat local to me, Bradley Oberholtzer, who's interesting to compare to GG because of the similarities and differences. It's interesting to see him externally rotate then internally rotate both shoulders at the same time, in the backswing and then the swing. Maybe I'm answering my own question, because his left arm doesn't do anything similar to what I was trying to do the other day. Anywho, I'll try skiing!

 

[Brychanus]

The off arm is much easier to perform and makes more sense when the rest of the body is swaying in rhythm more naturally. It naturally counterbalances and counterrotates the throw.

Right now your bigger fish to fry is that your body is fundamentally more about rotation than a lateral transition with a natural sway of the spine back and forth over the legs. Your spine stays very vertical relative to the ground between your feet. You won't ever get much mechanical lag or torque in the swing that way.

You should try Double Dragon. Exaggerate the swing of your body over your legs. This will feel totally different to you.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah I think the point about too much rotation is spot on, and something that was bugging me visually but I couldn't quite put my finger on. The ironic thing is that I do the dragon drill all the time and that's all I was thinking about with those throws, which made me think maybe I lost sight of the purpose of the drill a bit. I started focusing on solid footwork, swinging back inside, and then really getting a good kick the can/ride the bull feeling to try to get some more sway in my spine and lag in the disc.

I definitely felt the lag part! When I relax my arm and get that push/internal leg rotation at the last second it feels like my arm just has nowhere to go but forward from that position...though I think that may have been causing problems at the same time it solved them.



It looks like my shoulder isn't really externally rotating quick enough; whatever I was doing my elbow didn't like it too much. I tried to solve this by really trying to think "closed" at the last second and get that last second shoulder turn, to try to give my arm more space to swing. I think this did make a better looking throw, but the big issue remained.



I also did some dragon attempts, which look better to me, but didn't result in very good throws for some reason. I think something was just out of whack today.




Should I be guiding my shoulder into external rotation while I'm swinging? I feel like I finally have gotten my arm to relax, so it's tough to think about a way to tell my arm to do a particular thing while also not tensing it up all over again.

Thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Progress!

To answer my last question, it looks like the answer is sort of yes? I took don't spill the beverage as a starting cue, but also found it useful to imagine my arms were wrapped around a barrel or big medicine ball during the downswing. I tried to get my arms loosely swinging from an external load where the disc was just freely dragging behind my body, to wrapping internally around that barrel as the disc came through. The tricky part was guiding my body into that transition without forcing anything. I had a lot of whiffs and some posture issues but I also had one of my most effortless feeling throws.



This was my first sign I was onto something; the disc came out at a pretty good pace just pulled high right. The perspective is a little weird as I'm actually throwing up a fairly steep incline here even though it looks flat, so I wonder if that's part of why I get so tipped forward. I do also think it could be that I didn't have a very deep buttwipe.



This one just shocked me out of my hand - I put barely anything on it and it just flew and flew up the hill. I was trying to get a bit more hinge in the backswing to stop tipping over the plant, but I don't think I got that quite right and I wound up a little leaned back then a little leaned forward.

Anyway, gonna keep pushing along these lines once I can get to a flat ground field again

 

[Melonhusk]

Better little by little I think. I took some video from the back and confirmed I was falling a bit teepad left, plus my hips just looked lazy in general



I worked on that for a bit and wound up here:



I think it's one of the better looking loads and hershyzers I've been able to get to, but in the swing my hips rock forward and don't rock back so I think my butt wipe is falling apart when my weight is transferring, and why I wind up over the top a smidge. I don't know if that's what's causing the spin out too but it does look like I spin out a bit. The upper body is a whole other can of worms of course.

 

[Brychanus]

Things are looking a little smoother and pendulum-y in general there. No surprise you're getting more effortlessly off the front side :thmbup:

Look at the rear side again. Consider, what could you do differently to get more like this from foot to foot?

It's this quick action from the rear leg to the front leg that is missing.

Consider drilling your x-step more like a windmill and focus on getting quicker from foot to foot (practice swings without throwing and then with throwing). Still balanced in the transition from leg to leg. Then take the windmill away and throw.

 

[Melonhusk]

I think this definitely looks better, though I have some quibbles. In trying to get my weight transferred forward I think I didn't let myself really "sit" into my drive leg as much as I did the other day, so if I can do both of those things at once I think I'll really be getting somewhere. I also seemed to lose solid contact with the ground for a second as I drove off my back leg, so again I just gotta sit into that leg and keep driving forward, and then get my weight onto my front leg.

I think there's something really wrong with how my arm is working. It looks like my elbow is mostly just hinging open, so I'm again having (lack of) shoulder rotation issues. The disc shouldn't be higher than my elbow when it's at the center of my chest, I don't think. I figure there's gotta be a lot of power hiding there; I went back to some old video of when I could throw 450 with terrible form, and the main thing I notice is that even though a lot of things are going wrong, I was able to hang onto the disc for a really long time and it had more of that "hammer pound" look to it with my elbow above the disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your latest video is tipping over into the plant, your head is angled like \ instead of /.

Stride looks too diagonal to the west/left. Stride your foot underneath you and shift your lower spine forward underneath your head - ride the bull.

You are also dropping the disc down in the backswing, instead of either keeping in place or starting lower and levitating it upward to the top of backswing.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok yeah I think I see now. I thought before that as long as I threw off my front leg I wasn't tipping, but I think I see now how my arm action is reversed because I'm not riding the bull with my upper body; I'm guessing if I can do that my elbow will naturally come up and the disc will swing under. Does that sound about right? Thanks as always!

 

[Melonhusk]

I find myself very confused again. I think I feel the power potential in my lower spin shifting under me, it feels like I'm creating a ton of smooth momentum and landing in a super braced up position. I also see and feel the connection to the doorframe drill, with my lower body shifting under me while my upper body stays behind. I'm having a real tough time getting good feedback from throws though, and knowing when I'm on the right track and when I'm not. I picked out four standstills where I was trying some different variations.









Are any of these getting warm at all? The last one probably looks the closest to me, but it went way up in the air, which is all I could really do that day.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Your transition is weird. You hit the top of backswing too early and stop turning back and start dropping arm/disc early.

Need to keep turning back later and keep the disc floating to the top of backswing.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok, yeah I see what you mean - it looks a lot jerkier and wimpier than it feels when I'm doing it, for some reason. I'll give it a go, maybe work a hammer in there to get more momentum involved, thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Progress I think, not perfect but the transition felt a lot better and I got a lot of distance back from the other day when everything felt wrong. I tried to keep it loose so it's pretty sloppy, and I think I had some tipping/posture issues, but it seems like I might be on a better track here!





I had gotten the idea that I was supposed to take everything back at once; making the change to delay my backswing so that my weight shifting forward helped complete it felt a lot better.

 

[Melonhusk]

I was working on rocking my hips underneath and I stumbled into a feel I hadn't had before - if I take my right shoulder back towards my left hip as my center moves under me, when I get onto my front foot I get more leverage to unwind than I've ever experienced. Feels like I might be taking advantage of the oblique sling?





I was trying to toss the disc back and relax my arm right before the weight shift, but too often I think I wound up just reaching back down. It feels like my shoulder is coiling downwards, so it was tough to bring the disc back straight or upwards. When I did manage to get relaxed in that moment of transition the disc really went; I was throwing further than I have in a long, long time.

I know I'm also leaning back a bit, tends to creep in for me whenever I'm focusing on my upper body. Haven't really been able to address my left arm, but it's just got a mind of its own.

Still unsure why when my arm comes forward the outside edge of the disc is always pointed up. I didn't have any weird elbow pain today so I don't think it's as bad as that stretch when my arm was just completely working backwards, but I assume something is still a bit wonky in how I'm swinging.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your arm/disc is rotating backwards. Lag the disc wing/weight behind the acceleration of the hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADjcR_ZtUw&t=513s

Your left arm is going around you, instead of squeezing you tighter inside front leg.

 

[Melonhusk]

Your arm/disc is rotating backwards. Lag the disc wing/weight behind the acceleration of the hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADjcR_ZtUw&t=513s

Your left arm is going around you, instead of squeezing you tighter inside front leg.

Yeah, this is really a major roadblock for me and I should probably just focus on getting this piece right. 90% of what Antti is doing makes sense to me physically (even if I can't fully replicate it in a real throw), but even though I do understand conceptually that I need to internally rotate my shoulder as I bring the disc forward, I'm realizing I really just don't know what to tell my body to do yet. I can internally rotate my shoulder when I'm standing still, but if I'm not wrong, forcing my shoulder to internally rotate during the swing either won't work or will introduce tightness - right? At least, that's been my limited experience in the past. It seems like there must be some kind of posture change that would make my shoulder move the right way as a natural result of my body's alignment and movement. When I go in slow motion I can tell why my shoulder is doing what it's doing; it's the predictable result of the way I know how to release the coil right now. I just don't see the other way yet.

I think I get the "lag the disc wing/weight behind the center of the hand's acceleration" advice, unless that's the key to the correct shoulder rotation - in that case I might not understand yet. Is that like how Paul's wrist breaks at the top of his backswing, rather than curling up?

Thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

I messed around in a field with a frisbee for a bit trying some different ideas. Didn't really have any luck I don't think, this is a tough one.

I was really trying to focus on lagging the disc wing here, or my best interpretation of that - is this on the right track?



Here I decided to try cheating a bit and just keeping my shoulder internally rotated throughout - see if I can at least feel what it feels like. I think I get it! The disc release felt awesome and totally different, I could feel the "unscrewing" or the "thumb pushing the penny" feeling which I haven't before. It was definitely a little tense though.



I started to have the thought that maybe part of the problem is that my head wants to look forward so early. When I mimic my swing in slow motion my head tugs my shoulder open with it, so I wonder if my head opening early is taking away my shoulder's space to properly swing. Is this possible? I tried focusing on swinging the disc "sideways" or past my head. I think it maybe looks a bit better? Hard to tell with the angle. It felt very unnatural, but I don't know if that's bad or just something I'm not used to.

 

[sidewinder22]

Better, except for the flying left elbow.

 

[Melonhusk]

Still really struggling with what to tell my body to get my arm to rotate the correct way, but I think I may be on to something, maybe. I remembered the Shaolin lumberjack drill, and I realized - if I could just swing back as normal, and then cue myself to do Shaolin lumberjack and let my body figure out what happens in the middle, things might start looking better.

The flying left elbow is not better at all, maybe even worse. Is that screwing everything else up? I just didn't have the mental capacity to address that and focus on lumberjacking. My x step is also looking pretty sloppy and tippy. Looks like my shoulder rotation might be a little closer though!

 

[Melonhusk]

It's been a long time since I've tried tossing a hammer; I figured it might help fix my arm action.

This is as straight as I was able to toss the hammer; predictably I started off throwing it way right and gradually was able to straighten it out by really focusing on heaving it straight back behind me before I rotated.




Afterwards I tried to just do the same exact thing with a disc in my hand. It felt and flew horrible, but it's interesting because my arm/shoulder look a lot better here to me. Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting grip or something else, or maybe I wasn't quite on it yet in a different way.





Finally I tried speeding up to see if any improvements had carried over. I do think I did a better than usual job of letting the disc come forward before I started rotating, but other than that it was pretty terrible, looks like I was probably pretty over the top.