Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

Feeling like I'm on to something here! I was mainly trying to get the transition down from doorframe side tilt backswing to elbow-out eagle pre shot swing while keeping my weight moving and arm taut - and in the process of feeling things out I sort of accidentally wound up doing a bad McBeth impression including his big hammer out disc pump. The crazy thing is, I wasn't trying to copy him at all - I was just trying to feel what got my weight moving the best, and I just sort of stumbled on it. Immediately the quality of my shots went up by a lot though.

I don't want to oversell this breakthrough, still pleeeenty of my usual problems and I did say it was a bad impression - but for me, still exciting. Discs were certainly flying further and straighter. Here goes:

(side view is from a couple shots before I started doing the pump)











SW - unfortunately didn't see your post til after I threw - does any of this look better re: your point? I feel like my back knee still doesn't look like Doss'; his kneecap almost faces back towards the camera for a moment while I'm internally rotating my back leg through my whole load, so mine doesn't do that. Should I try to make it look more like his, or does what you're pointing out not really have to do with his hip rotation anyway? I'm actually not really sure how to keep my pressure on my back instep while at the same time externally rotating my back leg like he is.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Brychanus]

Feeling like I'm on to something here! I was mainly trying to get the transition down from doorframe side tilt backswing to elbow-out eagle pre shot swing while keeping my weight moving and arm taut - and in the process of feeling things out I sort of accidentally wound up doing a bad McBeth impression including his big hammer out disc pump. The crazy thing is, I wasn't trying to copy him at all - I was just trying to feel what got my weight moving the best, and I just sort of stumbled on it. Immediately the quality of my shots went up by a lot though.

Letting the big guy address that last Q but a couple things I hoped would help here.

Pumpin' it
One of the biggest "ahas" I had was that the pump momentum can help the body move forward "for free", and it additionally helps the rear leg "swing into" the x-step. Keep playing with that sensation. Your pump does look heavier.

One suggestion. Notice that when big guns are throwing for distance they tend to bring the pump momentum much more directly forward into the plant/weight shift than yours there - whether or not the arm fully extends forward. This is part of what I was trying to get you to access in the pump. Take what you just learned and bring the momentum directly forward to help you into the plant like McBeth, Isaac Robinson, or Doss.







Rear leg and knee issues
Writing this & also in hopes that SW can confirm if I've got my details right. One of the biggest parts of writing I contributed to Fundamentals was due to my profound confusion about the lower body. If you go to page 63/section 3.1., you can see how I attempted to point out where the rear knee's action is really confusing because it can look different in different camera angles.

I would suggest the "best" way to think about it is that you actually want it to work just like walking. Specfically, the rear hip internally rotating all the way to the point where it is deweighting as your weight is shifting to the plant foot. Pitching coaching talks about these mechanics too as does The Hips thread. Because Doss has a lot of leverage/pressure into the rear leg and coiling into backswing and his body is also shifting somewhat diagonally, the knee pulls what looks like a magic trick and it's no wonder it confuses so many people. Don't force it! It really is supposed to function pretty much exactly like walking. Easier said than done in many folks' case.

Watch Doss in multiple views here, there's a good side of tee (0:36) then one rare but important ass-on view later (1:12).

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks a little better.

What would it take to reverse your arm motion in the backswing/transition?

 

[Melonhusk]

What would it take to reverse your arm motion in the backswing/transition?

lol, I ask myself that question every day. It's so weird to me how hard it is to break out of that! It must be something pretty deeply ingrained I guess.

I wonder if at the moment it might have to do with my backswing still not being synced up right? It looks like possibly my arm starts coming forward a little early, I don't know why that would cause the backwards rotation but my arm definitely does not quite look pulled taut. You can see me reeeally trying to go from wing up in the backswing to wing down as the disc comes forward





But somehow the disc finds its way to its usual orientation anyway

Rear leg and knee issues
Writing this & also in hopes that SW can confirm if I've got my details right. One of the biggest parts of writing I contributed to Fundamentals was due to my profound confusion about the lower body. If you go to page 63/section 3.1., you can see how I attempted to point out where the rear knee's action is really confusing because it can look different in different camera angles.

I would suggest the "best" way to think about it is that you actually want it to work just like walking. Specfically, the rear hip internally rotating all the way to the point where it is deweighting as your weight is shifting to the plant foot. Pitching coaching talks about these mechanics too as does The Hips thread. Because Doss has a lot of leverage/pressure into the rear leg and coiling into backswing and his body is also shifting somewhat diagonally, the knee pulls what looks like a magic trick and it's no wonder it confuses so many people. Don't force it! It really is supposed to function pretty much exactly like walking. Easier said than done in many folks' case.

Watch Doss in multiple views here, there's a good side of tee (0:36) then one rare but important ass-on view later (1:12).

I read the passage, and unfortunately I get it, but I don't really get it. All the concepts make sense, but I still don't quite know how to make my back leg do that yet. I definitely do see the difference now, between Doss and Paul's back leg and mine! Especially from the back. I'm glad that internally rotating my back leg until weight shift is still the key and I wasn't mistaken on that, because even if I'm not doing it right yet that has yielded the best results for me so far.

I have a feeling I might just need to keep working through it and iterating; lately it seems like the less I force it and the more I just try to keep a few principles in mind and feel my way to the power the better it goes.

Thanks again!

 

[Brychanus]

lol, I ask myself that question every day. It's so weird to me how hard it is to break out of that! It must be something pretty deeply ingrained I guess.

I wonder if at the moment it might have to do with my backswing still not being synced up right? It looks like possibly my arm starts coming forward a little early, I don't know why that would cause the backwards rotation but my arm definitely does not quite look pulled taut. You can see me reeeally trying to go from wing up in the backswing to wing down as the disc comes forward





But somehow the disc finds its way to its usual orientation anyway







I read the passage, and unfortunately I get it, but I don't really get it. All the concepts make sense, but I still don't quite know how to make my back leg do that yet. I definitely do see the difference now, between Doss and Paul's back leg and mine! Especially from the back. I'm glad that internally rotating my back leg until weight shift is still the key and I wasn't mistaken on that, because even if I'm not doing it right yet that has yielded the best results for me so far.

I have a feeling I might just need to keep working through it and iterating; lately it seems like the less I force it and the more I just try to keep a few principles in mind and feel my way to the power the better it goes.

Thanks again!

I hear you man. Saying it, seeing it, and doing it are all unfortunately different things...

What happens if you try to copy Antti's move exactly?

 

[Melonhusk]

Got some more videos!

I couldn't really focus on all the ideas at once, had to work on things one at a time and film separately.

Here I was focusing on a big arm pump:



Here I was trying to have the wing pointed more or less up in the transition




I don't think I had really got my footwork down in these first two videos so my balance was pretty funky.


This might have been the most promising throw, release was way off but at least I was able to keep the wing down, and it was definitely harder than the throws I'd had up til that point. I didn't think about rotating my shoulder mid throw at all, just tried to bring it back and then forward relaxed with elbow out.

 

[sidewinder22]

One consistent issue is your head/shoulder too far over toes - outside posture.

 

[Melonhusk]

Just been plugging away along the same lines, trying to find my way through feels, and it's been working to an extent! About the time I took these videos I was just beginning to figure out how to sort of "pause" for a second to feel my back foot de-weighting, and then throw, which was new and led to an immediate distance increase vs (I assume) throwing with my weight not fully transferred yet. Seems like as good a time as any to see where things need to be adjusted.





Off the bat I feel like I'm if anything even more over my toes than last time, so that probably needs to be looked at.

I think I'm making some progress on my arm rotating the wrong way? My disc is pretty vertical at the top of the backswing, which I know is not typical, but I figure it's better than the wing going up to down as the disc comes forward so I've been leaving it alone.

My legs look a lot better than a couple months ago but maybe they've taken a step back in the last couple weeks? Starting to get a little lazy maybe.

Side note - are my videos playing ok for other people? I always have to click on my videos and watch them on youtube, but other people's embedded videos work fine for me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Your arm(s)/disc angles are so weird, IDK how you have any leverage.

I don't think the half pump(or x-step) is helping you, you get a bit funky chicken while Paul is in more battering ram posture. I'd either go full Feldy pump with the disc wing up(or at least level) at top of backswing or keep the disc in place.

What happens if you don't do any pump and just keep your hand on the outside edge of the disc and move around the disc?

1. Note how Paul's left elbow is in front of the body and trailing foot helping move everything targetward.

2. Note how his right shoulder/elbow is much further out/west and more in front of the disc. Let your shoulders/elbows hang in front of you like using a battering ram to pump forward with both arms. The bottom pic really shows how much more space Paul is creating inside his posture hugging the disc into it. You are retracting your shoulders/elbows back away from hugging the disc.

 

[Melonhusk]

Hurt my back a little bit, back at it now (carefully).

Trying to scrap the weird stuff and keep the good progress. I think I get the battering ram idea a bit better now, I can do it slow and I see how it creates the disc path through hit and release that most pros have and I don't, where from behind the teebox you can see the top of the disc right before release. Trying to let my shoulders hang more too, thinking rounded upper back and lots of space inside my upper body posture.





I feel like among other things I need to figure out how to not bring my rear shoulder all the way through the way that I'm doing do? It helps me right now to think of both of my arms as one "battering ram unit", but it feels like I'm losing leverage this way vs keeping my shoulders oriented more sideways to the target maybe.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

You are stuck in this squat/quad dominant motion pattern/posture, instead of hip hinge/hammy motion pattern/posture.

Note how far your knees are over your toes while my knees and shoulders are more stacked up over ankles and hips/butt are back deeper. My backswing is pulled back taut inside posture.

 

[Brychanus]

It helps me right now to think of both of my arms as one "battering ram unit", but it feels like I'm losing leverage this way vs keeping my shoulders oriented more sideways to the target maybe.

Thanks!

I've found it helpful to stride off diagonally like Wiggins' standstill here and throw a medicine ball two handed (basically battering ram, but with a ball), then put the ball down and throw the disc. It gave me muscle memory I can reliably return to when I'm trying to modify some of the posture issues SW points out above.

 

[Melonhusk]

Tried to work on the posture issues and get my shoulders to stay more sideways. I found a feel that seemed to help me - imagining once I got on my plant foot I wasn't allowed to rotate around my front leg - only rock completely sideways under my right hip joint like a big pendulum. Felt like I was on to something, disc felt really heavy a few times, but my arm still felt trapped behind my body and the most powerful shots were accidental shank sky hyzers.

I've found it helpful to stride off diagonally like Wiggins' standstill here and throw a medicine ball two handed (basically battering ram, but with a ball), then put the ball down and throw the disc. It gave me muscle memory I can reliably return to when I'm trying to modify some of the posture issues SW points out above.

Wish I had seen this first (and I wish I had a medicine ball), but I think it gives me an idea of a feel to try. Thinking my lead arm was too "passive" in the swing today and I really need to focus on the battering ram on top of the pendulum feel I had? Never sure how much I should be consciously manipulating my arm mid swing!

 

[Melonhusk]

I think I see the posture problem a bit better now - still have no idea what exactly I'm doing wrong and how to fix it yet, but at least I see it!

I think my biggest confusion is how to get into the plant - I felt like everything I was trying today was getting me stuck on my back leg even though I was finding the ground with my front leg. I was mostly just trying to keep my weight on my toes but over my heels, and trying to visualize my right shin being straight up and down when I planted.







Bonus side view, I was more focused on the battering ram feel here than the quad dominance issue




Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

1. You are leading your step/walk with your foot reaching out ahead of your upright spine, instead of your upper body falling forward and then foot catching up. Note how my lead shoulder is leaning down and out over my knee. This will probably feel over the top to you - one leg drill. You are walking like SC demos the wrong way.

2. Your backswing is late/rear knee in the way because how you are walking/stepping/striding. Note how my rear knee/hip/shoulder has cleared back out of the way for backswing to swing straight back.

 

[Melonhusk]

Nice, I definitely felt way too leaned back and overall uncomfortable, good to know that was as wrong as it felt! The SC timestamp made a lot of sense.








Any better? It definitely felt better, felt way smoother and more natural, not sure if I'm right back to my head being outside my posture though.

Thanks!

 

[Sewer bill]

Much improvement, you are firing slightly early and not giving yourself time to leverage against the weight transition after bracing. You could take 50% of that backswing away and would still be throwing the same speed. For fun you should try reaching out over your left foot instead of back and don't force any arm extension in the backswing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Much better! I think your grip is holding you back. Pump forward and let the disc/gravity pull your arm into the backswing.

 

[Melonhusk]

I think I understand letting gravity pull the disc back, I tried pumping forward (as usual, not nearly as big a pump as I thought I was doing) and feeling like my body was moving over top of the disc rather than tossing the disc back. Was not getting the hang of what do to after my backswing though, everything was either pulled right or early released and my balance was wonky.


I think this was probably my best backswing?





Release felt better here (still not great), focused more on sideways battering ram





Side view, noticing a consistent issue these past few weeks where even on my better feeling releases the disc is pivoting away from my body so early, like center chest at best. Seems like I'm having trouble getting it out ahead of my body.





Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

1. I think you really need to change your grip.
2. You are too over your rear toes in x-step.
3. Left arm is way behind the plant and posterior of your body.