Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Brychanus]

Might be better for you to try another cue/zoom out a bit. Timely that Socradeez and I were talking about this again, check out the short SlowPlastic video in his post here. I think you are making a version of the mistake he talks about before his "aha" moment in your grip and arm mechanics overall. You are not using grips and arm actions that get the hammer head or disc nose to come all the way around into the release point.

Tech disc test driven development

Interesting how both of them appear to be backwards from what they say. That green to red line changes depending on desired shot shape/hyzer angle. I'll show you next time.

www.dgcoursereview.com

Guy on top is making a version of that mistake here:



Maybe hammers won't do it for you in the end, but I'll mention a bit in case you want to keep playing with it.
To me the hammer pound is the entire action required to get the hammer head to come around and smash "through" the release point, and it doesn't feel anything like what I expected it to when applied to a disc, which is why it is hard to isolate and talk about individual parts of it. I made this video right when I figured out where the hammer head was supposed to go before I could figure out the weight shift mechanics while throwing discs (in my very first throw here, you can see I was totally "spinning out" in my one leg drill, which you never want to do. Frustratingly, my weight shift was right there in front of me all along while I was hitting the bag with the hammer or boxing). Anyway, see the timestamped part for the little hammer armslot drills. I had to physically hit the bag to understand what the release point actually is with a disc or a hammer swung freely in space.


The nose of the disc needs to be the hammer head coming around and smashing through the release point. The entire whip needs to be transferred all the way to the tip of the hammer/nose of the disc coming around. Otherwise the whole move will be sawed off a bit no matter what you do. This is when I learned what Gurthie was actually doing:



Gurthie just before the hammer head "comes all the way through."


If you then physically flick a quarter along a tabletop, what your shoulder, arm, thumb, and forearm are doing to apply the pressure is similar to the longest, most powerful, lowest effort, and safest hammer swing, which is why SW mentions it. I don't think I would have understood that though without the hammers personally.

Here's another way to think about it that might help you sync it up.
If your backswing comes out from just a bit of elevation/levitation like Double Dragon, the disc or hammer swing will give more of that "push a quarter with your thumb" action at the end. Compare you & Ricky's move.

 

[Melonhusk]

Might be better for you to try another cue/zoom out a bit. Timely that Socradeez and I were talking about this again, check out the short SlowPlastic video in his post here. I think you are making a version of the mistake he talks about before his "aha" moment in your grip and arm mechanics overall. You are not using grips and arm actions that get the hammer head or disc nose to come all the way around into the release point.

Tech disc test driven development

Interesting how both of them appear to be backwards from what they say. That green to red line changes depending on desired shot shape/hyzer angle. I'll show you next time.

www.dgcoursereview.com

Guy on top is making a version of that mistake here:
View attachment 336807


Maybe hammers won't do it for you in the end, but I'll mention a bit in case you want to keep playing with it.
To me the hammer pound is the entire action required to get the hammer head to come around and smash "through" the release point, and it doesn't feel anything like what I expected it to when applied to a disc, which is why it is hard to isolate and talk about individual parts of it. I made this video right when I figured out where the hammer head was supposed to go before I could figure out the weight shift mechanics while throwing discs (in my very first throw here, you can see I was totally "spinning out" in my one leg drill, which you never want to do. Frustratingly, my weight shift was right there in front of me all along while I was hitting the bag with the hammer or boxing). Anyway, see the timestamped part for the little hammer armslot drills. I had to physically hit the bag to understand what the release point actually is with a disc or a hammer swung freely in space.


The nose of the disc needs to be the hammer head coming around and smashing through the release point. The entire whip needs to be transferred all the way to the tip of the hammer/nose of the disc coming around. Otherwise the whole move will be sawed off a bit no matter what you do. This is when I learned what Gurthie was actually doing:
View attachment 336809


Gurthie just before the hammer head "comes all the way through."
View attachment 336806

If you then physically flick a quarter along a tabletop, what your shoulder, arm, thumb, and forearm are doing to apply the pressure is similar to the longest, most powerful, lowest effort, and safest hammer swing, which is why SW mentions it. I don't think I would have understood that though without the hammers personally.

Here's another way to think about it that might help you sync it up.
If your backswing comes out from just a bit of elevation/levitation like Double Dragon, the disc or hammer swing will give more of that "push a quarter with your thumb" action at the end. Compare you & Ricky's move.

View attachment 336805

Interesting, that slowplastic video definitely describes how I at least imagine I'm using my grip, but I do see what you're saying for sure that when I'm throwing at higher speeds in my most recent video my hand is ahead of the disc when it comes out of my grip, and I think that might be a factor in how my middle finger isn't safely getting out of the way. Next time I think I'm going to get slow motion video of a lot of different angles and throwing styles to see what's really going on at release.

I also want to try out what you're advocating at the timestamp in your video, question about that - why do you suggest not letting the disc pivot around? Totally get the feeling you're trying to instill of swinging the handle of the hammer through, but if what we're going for is the head of the hammer pivoting around, wouldn't we want the disc to do the same? Or are you just saying we should resist the hammer head coming around too early?

Thanks!

 

[Brychanus]

Interesting, that slowplastic video definitely describes how I at least imagine I'm using my grip, but I do see what you're saying for sure that when I'm throwing at higher speeds in my most recent video my hand is ahead of the disc when it comes out of my grip, and I think that might be a factor in how my middle finger isn't safely getting out of the way. Next time I think I'm going to get slow motion video of a lot of different angles and throwing styles to see what's really going on at release.

I also want to try out what you're advocating at the timestamp in your video, question about that - why do you suggest not letting the disc pivot around? Totally get the feeling you're trying to instill of swinging the handle of the hammer through, but if what we're going for is the head of the hammer pivoting around, wouldn't we want the disc to do the same? Or are you just saying we should resist the hammer head coming around too early?

Thanks!

Yes good Q,

Yes, resist the "hammer head" or nose coming around/pivoting too early in the move. That's why you see forearms appear muscled up - the disc briefly weighs in at something like 60-70lbs near the peak as it accelerates.








The same thing happens with a hammer as your forearm swings a hammer, or if you keep accelerating and throw a hammer you will throw it farther if the force of the swing overwhelms your grip trying to resist the release rather than just trying to pivot it out there. So you are leveraging it out like pounding the hammer, while you are also clamping down & holding on for dear life. This is why If you let a disc pivot out in the relatively low speed practice swings, you lose the strongest part of the move through the arm itself. It's always a weaker whip effect because it lacks resistance and the rebound effect through the wrist/"tendon bounce" etc.

When I throw a punch at the heavy bag my chain starts very loose, then the hand/wrist "firm up" a bit to transmit the hit into the bag. Similar effect on the disc I think. I never played baseball but you'll see similar concepts there and in tennis and golf.

I used to have very floppy wrists and working with the hammers, indian bars, and dumbells helped train my wrist to do this without trying to consciously micromanage it. I still get early releases/grip slips sometimes when my move causes the disc to accelerate faster than before. Takes a lot of practice for the arm to train as you add speed.

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright got some slow motion footage and did some experimenting. I think those last couple inches before release are definitely something I need to work on, and I was actually surprised to see how similar my hand was at release across all the different throws. I figured that first short throw, using a heavy amount of conscious wrist springiness would look different than the high effort throws, where I don't feel like I have a feel yet for how to use my wrist to add power - but really there's not much difference in how my hand leaves the disc.



Also, not something I had the headspace to consciously address in the moment, but the APT is even worse than usual. Gotta figure out how to sit down more without getting stuck behind the brace.

 

[Brychanus]

What is the hardest you have ever hit or thrown something, and in what context?

 

[Melonhusk]

What is the hardest you have ever hit or thrown something, and in what context?

Definitely discs, 4 years ago with my old form that was terrible on my shoulder and elbow but got me ~450 on a good day. I guess I could hit a baseball harder than that in terms of mph when I played, but I wasn't very good at baseball.

Actually, you can see I'm holding onto the disc longer and getting it deeper into my chest in these old throws. Wonder how close to 100% of the power is coming solely from that, these throws just look like pure last second intent at the cost of everything else.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, that old form was missing all of the North-South balancing I summarized here:

Tilted Axes, Spirals, and Dynamic Balance

TL;DR: If you're already an elite athlete and top 50 thrower on tour, you're probably doing this well enough. Congratulations! If not, maybe there's a nugget or two in here you will find instructive, but it's mostly a form theory thread. "Just do it" if you actually want to learn and Understand...

www.dgcoursereview.com

You have made some progress there but at the end here I will encourage you to make it a main priority.

I think you want to keep a bit of your old chain because that "stank" you were putting on it at the end is part of the move, but for ease, distance, and injury avoidance, you should connect it up to improve balance and shift dynamics and see where grip + shift can meet in the middle.

Grips, hammers, and whips:
Your old throw and I still think the new one are still sawing off the "tip of the whip." The nose of the disc never really comes all the way around. If you were holding a hammer it would be like trying to throw it while choked partway up the handle. You could do it, but you would get less speed and RPMs, and you would have to work harder. Old throw:



This is better with respect to the grip, but when I went through frame by frame I still don't think the nose came all the way around. Maybe like 75-80% around. You are also swinging "over the top" because you are tipping off the rear leg.



Compare to me and GG (I just use this because it's easier to see on hyzer in vertical forms). My hammer head is coming all the way around. The nose of his disc is about to come around all the way like the hammer head. I feel like the hammer head and disc both "smash through" around where the hammerhead is when I'm throwing my best:


You still haven't crossed the Rubicon of the balanced tilt, and your grip tinkering is only going to get you so far without solving this:
I think you can do whatever you like with the above but you still have this big fish to fry if you want total body efficiency:

Look in your post 524 video around 0:50, where you do the little pendulum warmup. The whole move looks fairly "massless" like you are about to cue up a light Ultimate frisbee toss, not an MLB-level baseball swing or backhand. Watch how Sidewinder moves in Double Dragon and in Reverse Stride (in his setup). You can see that his feet and body mass are much more in the move. It's not about how big the move is - it's about the way he athletically balances each way. When I move in a narrow range I move more like him now (more mAssive) because I still drill it out in the bigger moves.

In the context of your North-South balance you are weaker and less balanced on the drive side (common).

If you really wanted to nail this I think I would recommend this:

Double dragon every single day for a few minutes. How you approach this move matters - a lot.
Kick that leg and arm back directly at the camera with as much momentum as you possibly can. When you think you can't do more, push it a little further. Keep getting stretched, feel the tilt head to foot, and commit to it over and over. Now add more (over days). Now when I do Double dragon I wait until it feels almost like my leg is going to throw me through the wall behind me if I'm not completely in balance. I don't go anywhere because my body coils up and grabs the ground through my drive leg and my body mass is countering my leg kicking back. I want to see and feel your whole body mass in the throws like you're throwing cinderblocks, not frisbees. But if you don't do it mastering the rear side tilt, you'll never really get the front side tilt because they're fundamentally connected and you can't fake it.

When I have had people do DD in person I am always shocked at how weak their kicks look and how shallow their tilt is at first (this was even with a taekwondo student). I stand directly behind them just out of the range of their foot and say "kick me in the stomach." Warm up until you can swing that leg with as much momentum as you can without hurting yourself. Try to kick us in the stomach. Put us on our ass with your swinging mAss. Let the arm follow up for the knockout swing, then carry it through into the plant to throw.



That's how a 120lb. girl once put my 240lb ass on the floor with a back kick. Kick us with momentum. Not effort.

The good news is that you can solve this if you don't get distracted by minutiae or the chatter of the week.

Literally every single person I've seen on this forum would benefit from running with this advice to some extent. Most people give up on this stuff prematurely and it sticks around forever in their form because you can't cheat learning balance, and most people are unsuccessful identifying it and fixing it in their form on their own (which can be fine depending on their goals, just pointing it out).

In solidarity I will be doing some DD later tonight. I will be trying to kick you as hard as I can (with love, of course!).

 

[Melonhusk]

Thanks for this, and the excellent writeup you linked in your post!

I've been plugging away on double dragons and gotten many, many awful examples on camera, but finally I think something clicked for me re: braced tilt. Two pieces might have clicked for me actually, though only separately.

First a few days ago I was casting around for inspiration with some ultimate form videos and noticed how when these players step out





their mass, or where I imagine it, is targetward of their pivot foot the entire time they're stepping. I always imagined it starting out a bit more stacked on top. I practiced that a bit and then tried doing an x step where I forgot about disc golf halfway through, once I got my momentum, and tried to copy their frisbee throw instead.



Looks more fluid, is the best word I can come up with? I also don't know if I've ever finished with that same balance before, like SW in the beginning of this video,



sort of a tilted pirouette on the right leg and dismount walking to the east.
Don't want to make too much of this throw, obviously there are many many issues, but it stuck out to me as a possible improvement!


Today my legs were looking a bit more like their usual selves but I think I made some progress on tilt. The big aha for me was this picture here:

View attachment 337939

which I'm sure has been expressed to me in words 1000 times, but the visual cue that I should almost be swinging "downward" from the perspective of my chest I think helped give my body the right task.

I don't know how close I'm getting to the right track here, but I will say discs were 100% flying waay better, clearly more spin or less nose up or some combination - either way no more 250 foot S curves with putters.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking good!

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for this, and the excellent writeup you linked in your post!

I've been plugging away on double dragons and gotten many, many awful examples on camera, but finally I think something clicked for me re: braced tilt. Two pieces might have clicked for me actually, though only separately.

First a few days ago I was casting around for inspiration with some ultimate form videos and noticed how when these players step out





their mass, or where I imagine it, is targetward of their pivot foot the entire time they're stepping. I always imagined it starting out a bit more stacked on top. I practiced that a bit and then tried doing an x step where I forgot about disc golf halfway through, once I got my momentum, and tried to copy their frisbee throw instead.



Looks more fluid, is the best word I can come up with? I also don't know if I've ever finished with that same balance before, like SW in the beginning of this video,



sort of a tilted pirouette on the right leg and dismount walking to the east.
Don't want to make too much of this throw, obviously there are many many issues, but it stuck out to me as a possible improvement!


Today my legs were looking a bit more like their usual selves but I think I made some progress on tilt. The big aha for me was this picture here:


which I'm sure has been expressed to me in words 1000 times, but the visual cue that I should almost be swinging "downward" from the perspective of my chest I think helped give my body the right task.

I don't know how close I'm getting to the right track here, but I will say discs were 100% flying waay better, clearly more spin or less nose up or some combination - either way no more 250 foot S curves with putters.

It took me a while to "see" what "leading with the mAss" means. It's fundamentally a postural concept and I think you found it in your ultimate examples.

I guess I'd suggest keep working on tilt in the context of DD for a while. Always in the background. 2 minutes getting loose every morning etc. Even when mine gets out of whack (frequent) I can quickly dip into double dragon and waltz muscle memory and try to tweak what was wrong in the very next shot much more quickly because of all the practice.

I would keep working on DD posture. Keep trying to nudge it to make your rear side look more and more like his before shifting forward.

I forget/maybe you should test- any issues in that rear leg or hip? I can't tell how much is balance or if there is a mobility issue.

 

[Melonhusk]

Looking good!

It took me a while to "see" what "leading with the mAss" means. It's fundamentally a postural concept and I think you found it in your ultimate examples.

I guess I'd suggest keep working on tilt in the context of DD for a while. Always in the background. 2 minutes getting loose every morning etc. Even when mine gets out of whack (frequent) I can quickly dip into double dragon and waltz muscle memory and try to tweak what was wrong in the very next shot much more quickly because of all the practice.

I would keep working on DD posture. Keep trying to nudge it to make your rear side look more and more like his before shifting forward.

I forget/maybe you should test- any issues in that rear leg or hip? I can't tell how much is balance or if there is a mobility issue.

Thank you both!

Brychanus, by make my rear side look more like his, do you mean like sidewinder? I notice in the double dragon videos from yesterday I'm sort of falling down onto my front side instead of shifting onto it in a rocking motion like kick the can, or like this

is that what you're seeing too? I don't have any mobility issues in that leg/hip that I know of (apart from sitting at a desk all day), but I am a bit IR dominant from what I can tell.

 

[Brychanus]

Thank you both!

Brychanus, by make my rear side look more like his, do you mean like sidewinder? I notice in the double dragon videos from yesterday I'm sort of falling down onto my front side instead of shifting onto it in a rocking motion like kick the can, or like this

is that what you're seeing too? I don't have any mobility issues in that leg/hip that I know of (apart from sitting at a desk all day), but I am a bit IR dominant from what I can tell.

Yeah I was just wondering because you always carry your mass a little differently than he or I and the IR could be part of it.

Actually I just noticed what I should have said. When you kick back (that looks pretty good) your arm follows but then your arm and leg are both shifting forward together. Instead, you want the arm to continue stretching your core and coiling you back into the backswing while the leg swings forward toward the plant. You should feel a significant boost out of the backswing by changing this. I still have this habit sometimes and have to consciously adjust it as I loosen up in the double dragon to make sure I'm getting all the way loaded up and sequenced.

 

[Melonhusk]

Got some more footage on the course, along with maybe some more progress and understanding on the lower body. I think I can finally see my alignment shift from one leg to the other in these side views (put my camera in the wrong spot for the second side view/last clip but included it because I think it still looks the best), and I think I finally feel what it feels like, which is: different. Unfortunately, my swing felt totally flat; tried to bring back the same feels that got my upper body looking better the other day but to no avail. The more levitation feeling I could feel at the top of the backswing and the more I focused on a single moment of intent and relaxed otherwise the better the throws were, but even on the good throws something still looks off.

 

[Brychanus]

Some things are just really dang hard to change man.

What if you next try to
1) get more "shoulder Dingle" like Dingle arm drill going into the backswing and
2) let it "levitate" you a little more "up" on the rear side as it enters the peak of the backswing?

The second one is subtle here but Simon is doing both:



I can "see" it better myself when I compare it to his older pendulum move:



Simon's "drift" phase is very long building up an enormous coil. Part of the reason it looks like he is walking casually (and athletically) is because his backswing is still helping to "levitate" him slightly. Otherwise he would get stuck on the rear foot in the x step.

 

[Melonhusk]

Feel like I inched a bit closer this week. My release at times felt really good, it just seems like I'm one or two "aha"s away from actually getting somewhere. Still on the right track?

 

[Melonhusk]

Watching back I think one area I need to look at is my front shoulder isn't really dingling right - rather than swinging down under my chin it's moving in kind of a straight line/slight upward trajectory from backswing to finish.

Messing around with that, today I found if I took the backswing under my chin it sometimes had the added benefit of making my posture more hollow and recruiting my left arm without having to focus on either of those things, so that seemed positive. That said I didn't really get the hang of it. Releases were weird and the disc was lagging behind my body.






Tried a slightly different tack, wanted to feel like I was rocking the disc side to side with a dip in the middle. Also looked promising in some ways but didn't fully click.

 

[Brychanus]

Keep in mind that there is variability, but in general most pro-level moves use a maneuver that is somewhere between a fully vertical dingle arm and a fully horizontal pull/spin move.

You end up leaning back and away again, see if you can take your whole posture more forward and aggressive with the shoulder like a line backer. Let the swing come out under your head from the Dingle arm/shoulder

 

[Melonhusk]

Keep in mind that there is variability, but in general most pro-level moves use a maneuver that is somewhere between a fully vertical dingle arm and a fully horizontal pull/spin move.

You end up leaning back and away again, see if you can take your whole posture more forward and aggressive with the shoulder like a line backer. Let the swing come out under your head from the Dingle arm/shoulder

I think I know what you mean, went through a couple different feels to try to get there and maybe showing some promise? My footwork was giving me some trouble today, not as good as yesterday, and the throws were not great, but I think I was starting to figure out how to be more forward without going over the top.

This was how I wanted the end of the swing to feel




Most throws were like this, too flat





Except one near the end where I tried to think more balanced and stacked, but only after I had gotten into my aggressive forward move. Maybe this is looking better?

 

[sidewinder22]

Note how much wider Alex keeps his upper arm away from his chest and uses his body balance to direct the shot.

 

[Melonhusk]

Note how much wider Alex keeps his upper arm away from his chest and uses his body balance to direct the shot.

Interesting, sort of Kevin Jones-like too, right? Just checking, by upper arm do you mean closer to the shoulder or closer to the hand? I see how both could be true.