[Innova] champ sidewinder variations

[elmexdela]

The best Sidewinder I ever threw was a first run champion (with the tiny star stamp on it). It would pop up flat and soar. It had some definite high speed turn, but wouldn't flip all the way over. The SWs these days seem to be flippier. I throw them hard and they turn and burn.

I haven't thrown the mold in a long, long time. At the time it was probably my longest driver due to the sheer amount of glide it had. 400' wasn't all that hard to do.

the first runs and early runs were absolute beauty.

i havent throw a sw in a handful of years, since i had that big blow out with innova and their horrid customer service. the gstarrr was the closest thing recently to the FR and early runs.

 

[brandocommando9]

Luster sidewinders are molding up awesome. Identical shape to my stack of 05 Christmas star sidewinders. Perfect sidewinder flight too.

 

[Skins]

do you have pics of the sw?

I can snap a side by side plh comparison and a stamp view.

 

[Alexplz]

the first runs and early runs were absolute beauty.

i havent throw a sw in a handful of years, since i had that big blow out with innova and their horrid customer service. the gstarrr was the closest thing recently to the FR and early runs.

What's the deal with your spelling of GStar?

 

[Alexplz]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

 

[Twmccoy]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

A heavy champion or star Sidewinder could probably do OK in side winds. I wouldn't mess with anything lightweight though. It also depends how strong of wind you're talking. If its heavy wind, forget about the Sidewinder. It'll get tossed around bad.

 

[SD86]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

You can get a Champ Sidewinder for "normal" conditions, and try it in the sidewinds. If it doesn't work, then maybe one of those Star Valkyries might work better, and so on... and you have your Sidewinder for other conditions...

 

[slowplastic]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

Generally in the wind, ask yourself what the disc would do if you could throw harder. Applying to head or left to right crosswind for RHBH. So say it's a moderate wind, then ask "if I could throw 30' farther would this disc turn more?". Something like a Thunderbird won't really turn much more, but a Sidewinder likely would. So a Thunderbird would handle wind a bit more consistently whereas a Sidewinder would start to show its intended characteristics.

That being said some champ SW are pretty stable and will drift and probably come back if it's mild-moderate wind and you don't throw super hard. But I would expect it to interact a lot more with winds of varying strengths.

 

[Alexplz]

Generally in the wind, ask yourself what the disc would do if you could throw harder. Applying to head or left to right crosswind for RHBH. So say it's a moderate wind, then ask "if I could throw 30' farther would this disc turn more?". Something like a Thunderbird won't really turn much more, but a Sidewinder likely would. So a Thunderbird would handle wind a bit more consistently whereas a Sidewinder would start to show its intended characteristics.

That being said some champ SW are pretty stable and will drift and probably come back if it's mild-moderate wind and you don't throw super hard. But I would expect it to interact a lot more with winds of varying strengths.

In your experience, does a crosswind have a similar effect as a headwind in making the disc fly as though it's experiencing higher airspeed? I would think that a disc would act no different due to aerodynamic HST in a 15 mph crosswind vs calm conditions.

 

[nfrost]

In your experience, does a crosswind have a similar effect as a headwind in making the disc fly as though it's experiencing higher airspeed? I would think that a disc would act no different due to aerodynamic HST in a 15 mph crosswind vs calm conditions.

Crosswinds will make your disc fly differently than a head or tail wind. It will depend on which direction the wind is coming from (left or right) and what type of throw (sidearm/backhand, left/right hand).

 

[slowplastic]

In your experience, does a crosswind have a similar effect as a headwind in making the disc fly as though it's experiencing higher airspeed? I would think that a disc would act no different due to aerodynamic HST in a 15 mph crosswind vs calm conditions.

So consider a RHBH throw.

Left to right crosswind will push a hyzer shot down because the top of the flight plate is facing the wind. A flat throw with a true stable-overstable disc should go pretty straight still...think Teebird/Thunderbird. But throwing 100% flat and with wind variance along the flight...at some point the underside of the disc is going to see some wind. This will push the disc to the right. So a more overstable disc will fight this L/R crosswind and hold straighter, eventually getting a fade and as soon as it begins to fade the top of the flight plate gets pushed down by the wind so it'll end pretty straight. If you throw an understable disc in a L/R wind, once it gets just past flat the disc will get carried right and it will never have the added stability to fight the wind at all.

So basically in a L/R crosswind you want stable-overstable, ideally for distance just enough HSS wiggle that the crosswind is pushing the underside of the disc the whole way while the disc is overstable enough that it is trying to track left, keeping it gliding. If you go true OS like a Firebird, it will hold dead straight and then as it fades it gets pushed straight down so the fade time is really decreased, almost like a Teebird shape. If I had to make up some numbers that are pretty much guesses based on my experience, the flight path for many of my discs with say a 10MPH L/R wind are like a 15-20MPH headwind. However the distance is very different...crosswinds don't kill distance and sometimes you get great carry, whereas headwinds tend to eat up distance unless you are throwing a disc that is too fast/stable for you and the wind kicks it into its intended flight characteristics...not common but it happens.

In a right to left crosswind, a stable-overstable disc will show the underside of its flight plate as soon as it starts to fade, and it'll get pushed way left and pretty early usually. Typically a moderately understable disc is best thrown on a slight hyzer flip. As it flips to flat it does its normal thing, then as it tries to barely get past flat the wind holds the flight plate down level and it just tracks straight. Then since it's a mellow disc it won't have a ton of fade, but that will still get accentuated by the wind carrying the underside of the disc left at the end of the flight. If you go super understable it can get pushed down as it flips over too quick.

So really it's not that it has more turn in a crosswind, it's just that as soon as the turn exposes the bottom of the disc you then have to ask how much stability the disc has in it to fight the wind that is now trying to control it.

Edit: This is all based on my experience throwing windy rounds and practice sessions.

 

[elmexdela]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

ive had valks fly like sw, and sw fly like valks.

and valks marked sw.

its incredibly frustrating to start throwing either. unless you like the wild unpredictability of how they are going to fly.

 

[elmexdela]

On a scale of 1 to silly, just how foolhardy would it be for me to seek out a champ sidewinder as a disc to throw for distance through a side wind? I understand that typically one would think more of a thunderbird-type stability for this. However, say I'm already bagging stable fairways and want something with very little lateral movement to avoid exposing the underside of the flightplate. Am I completely off base? Would a sidewinder just get blown around no matter what?

Keep in mind I'm a noodle arm which is why my mind goes to the champ SW when I think max distance in a straight line with a little bit of fade, without the monster glide of a river/saint/FD/whatever.

i used to use sw as my main drivers. i would throw them into any wind (headwind, cross, side, tail)

it can be done.

 

[slowplastic]

i used to use sw as my main drivers. i would throw them into any wind (headwind, cross, side, tail)

it can be done.

This is a good point. SW is a good mold where you know it should turn, and if there is wind it just turns more. It's not one of those discs that just "suddenly" turns or turns stupid quick in wind, in the first 100-150' flipping instantly. It just keeps flipping continually more in my experience.

 

[elmexdela]

This is a good point. SW is a good mold where you know it should turn, and if there is wind it just turns more. It's not one of those discs that just "suddenly" turns or turns stupid quick in wind, in the first 100-150' flipping instantly. It just keeps flipping continually more in my experience.

yup very predictable. i used to throw my beloved champ sw on hyzer into a headwind over a lake where i need to finish left (rhbh) and would trust it to finish left.

 

[Skins]

Here's my two sw side by side.

 

[Skins]

And the stamp

 

[Skins]

Better pic

 

[TripleB]

Due to similar issues with how the various Sidewinders I had over the years flew I retired Sidewinders in favor of Avenger SS's, and retired the Avenger SS in favor of the Mongoose.

Currently using a pretty beat in Star Sidewinder at 153g....most of the time it's the perfect flight for this 5 month newbie, but there are times when it turns (right for my rhbh). Thinking of keeping it in my bag for those types of shots, but also thinking of getting something new that offers a tad more stability.

Was looking at a new Star Sidewinder in the 158g to 161g range but saw you mentioned the Mongoose. Intrigued by the Icon Mongoose (probably around 164g) because the plastic description says the plastic is similar to the Star in grip but a little stiffer (which seems about what I'm looking for).

How would the flight of the Icon Mongoose compare to my current Sidewinder (or a newer 165g Sidewinder that I also have)?

Thanks!

TripleB

 

[SD86]

Currently using a pretty beat in Star Sidewinder at 153g....most of the time it's the perfect flight for this 5 month newbie, but there are times when it turns (right for my rhbh). Thinking of keeping it in my bag for those types of shots, but also thinking of getting something new that offers a tad more stability.

Was looking at a new Star Sidewinder in the 158g to 161g range but saw you mentioned the Mongoose. Intrigued by the Icon Mongoose (probably around 164g) because the plastic description says the plastic is similar to the Star in grip but a little stiffer (which seems about what I'm looking for).

How would the flight of the Icon Mongoose compare to my current Sidewinder (or a newer 165g Sidewinder that I also have)?

Thanks!

TripleB

For more stability, if you do go with another Sidewinder, you might try a Champion Sidewinder in the low to mid 160s, or a Star Sidewinder in the upper 160s to 170 of so. And I probably mentioned this already somewhere, but the Falchion is very similar to the Sidewinder, has awesome glide, and is a great mold.