Collecting weight in the plant heel

[DiscusMaximus]

Hey guys,

Have a question for everyone about the weight shift into the plant. I think I'm finally starting to get a feel for proper weight transfer. Haven't got a chance to test in the field yet, but it seems close to what's described here.

I'm sitting down/falling/pogo-ing into the plant heel while still reaching back, and I start to feel the heel crush and the weight wants to come forward. Struggling a little bit to get stretched as far as I feel like I could for more power though. I get a little deeper with the pendulum backswing, probably due to having a more relaxed arm/lat, but it seems harder to time with the timing of the heel collecting the weight than an unfolding reachback. I also don't seem to be fully settled into my heel before the whip unfurls, with either backswing (better with unfolding though). I'm working on integrating this into my x-step. The extra momentum seems like it may help get stretched further and push weight deeper into the heel, but the balance/timing is harder. (Tips on being more relaxed in an unfolding backswing welcome)

So the following questions have come to mind:

From what I read here, the weight needs to be 100% on the front foot before moving forward, does it also need to be 100% transferred to the heel? Or is it ok if most of the weight it on the heel, and it fully finishes transferring as you pull into the pocket and before the hit?

Is this a function of not falling/sitting while leveraged on the back foot long enough? Or do I need to be sitting/falling with more weight/commitment? Maybe this is the same thing.

I've seen it posted in videos and discussed here that you don't pump/push the plant leg, even though it straightens/extends. It's the rotation itself that straightens the leg. Someone like Dr. Kwon, on the other hand, says you do push to pump the whip. In the one-leg drill I feel like I whip harder when I pump the leg, and when trying to pump in my throw it feels like it can be harder, but given the conflicting information, should I instead be focused on getting deeper into the heel and just having that automatic unfurling/straightening of the plant leg?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

 

[Sheep]

My strongest suggestion on this is to get a video of you throwing 1 or 2 shots where you feel you're doing the correct motion and get it posted over in the form review section, and pose this question along with it.

It's a lot easier to make sure your question aligns with what your minds eye thinks you're doing and what you're really doing to help give the best advice in a lot of this stuff.

Brace is one of the most missunderstood things in disc golf that is finally getting some good life and proper discussion and theory put into it.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Will definitely do at the earliest opportunity!

 

[HB2017]

Not directly answering your questions but something to think about is that you do not want the lead knee to flex once the lead foot has accepted force from the weight shift (i.e. heel on ground). I think you would benefit from watching some Tread Athletics videos on "Lead Leg" and "Stride", they're baseball pitching coaches but the information is highly applicable to disc golf. I also recommend Athletic Motion Golf, they just cut a great video ("Saggy Knees") on lower body mechanics.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks for the input! I'll make sure I've got the knee bent as far as it needs to when accepting the weight/force from the shift.

Definitely have watched many of their videos, probably a few times each. Takes me a bit to absorb sometimes, it seems. My last question was based on what I heard from Tread and how it conflicted with Dr. Kwon.

 

[HB2017]

Re: your last question, I think getting deep in the heel with unforced lead leg straightening (e.g. no deliberate quadriceps contraction) is the optimal way to brace. To me it feels more like the hamstrings not firing/deactivating rather than the quadriceps firing. Ultimately you would probably need a combination of good motion capture software and electromyography on a wide sample of elite players to settle the debate.

 

[CoachChris]

Hey guys,

Have a question for everyone about the weight shift into the plant. I think I'm finally starting to get a feel for proper weight transfer. Haven't got a chance to test in the field yet, but it seems close to what's described here.

I'm sitting down/falling/pogo-ing into the plant heel while still reaching back, and I start to feel the heel crush and the weight wants to come forward. Struggling a little bit to get stretched as far as I feel like I could for more power though. I get a little deeper with the pendulum backswing, probably due to having a more relaxed arm/lat, but it seems harder to time with the timing of the heel collecting the weight than an unfolding reachback. I also don't seem to be fully settled into my heel before the whip unfurls, with either backswing (better with unfolding though). I'm working on integrating this into my x-step. The extra momentum seems like it may help get stretched further and push weight deeper into the heel, but the balance/timing is harder. (Tips on being more relaxed in an unfolding backswing welcome)

So the following questions have come to mind:

From what I read here, the weight needs to be 100% on the front foot before moving forward, does it also need to be 100% transferred to the heel? Or is it ok if most of the weight it on the heel, and it fully finishes transferring as you pull into the pocket and before the hit?

Is this a function of not falling/sitting while leveraged on the back foot long enough? Or do I need to be sitting/falling with more weight/commitment? Maybe this is the same thing.

I've seen it posted in videos and discussed here that you don't pump/push the plant leg, even though it straightens/extends. It's the rotation itself that straightens the leg. Someone like Dr. Kwon, on the other hand, says you do push to pump the whip. In the one-leg drill I feel like I whip harder when I pump the leg, and when trying to pump in my throw it feels like it can be harder, but given the conflicting information, should I instead be focused on getting deeper into the heel and just having that automatic unfurling/straightening of the plant leg?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

1) Dr Kwon is only referring to a golf swing where both feet push against each other causing a force couple. In a good disc golf throw plant 100% of the pressure is on the lead foot. There is no force couple in the feet. 2) the plant pressure is in the inside arch of the lead foot and eventually the full flat foot, not the heel.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks guys, that helps clear that up for me. Was starting to play around maintaining some pressure on the back leg at the beginning of the downswing due to reading this write up by Dr. Mann where he disagrees with some of the claims of Dr. Kwon and Shawn Clement, the latter being very popular here.

Seems as though this is part of the danger of utilizing too much ball golf analysis to try and figure out your disc golf swing. Curious as to why a force couple doesn't help us, but it does for ball golf... more centered rotation?

 

[CoachChris]

Thanks guys, that helps clear that up for me. Was starting to play around maintaining some pressure on the back leg at the beginning of the downswing due to reading this write up by Dr. Mann where he disagrees with some of the claims of Dr. Kwon and Shawn Clement, the latter being very popular here.

Seems as though this is part of the danger of utilizing too much ball golf analysis to try and figure out your disc golf swing. Curious as to why a force couple doesn't help us, but it does for ball golf... more centered rotation?

A force couple needs 2 force vectors. In ball golf both feet are always connected to the ground when applying force. In disc golf, only the plant foot has pressure into the ground while throwing. No couple unless possibly in a standstill

 

[timothy42b]

A force couple needs 2 force vectors. In ball golf both feet are always connected to the ground when applying force. In disc golf, only the plant foot has pressure into the ground while throwing. No couple unless possibly in a standstill

Not meaning to be argumentative, but to some extent doesn't the brace represent a couple (in at least one dimension and potentially in 3?). I don't know your thoughts on the importance of the brace and plant leg. But it represents a force acting in a different direction to the inertia of the center of mass. If directly below that motion line, possibly 1D, but likely to be offset enough to represent a second couple and possibly a third.

 

[timothy42b]

Thanks guys, that helps clear that up for me. Was starting to play around maintaining some pressure on the back leg at the beginning of the downswing due to reading this write up by Dr. Mann where he disagrees with some of the claims of Dr. Kwon and Shawn Clement, the latter being very popular here.

Seems as though this is part of the danger of utilizing too much ball golf analysis to try and figure out your disc golf swing. Curious as to why a force couple doesn't help us, but it does for ball golf... more centered rotation?

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. My takeaway, regardless of who is correct, is that ball golf analysis is considerably more mature than disc golf so far. Hope we continue to make progress.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Isnt there a force couple when transitioning the weight from the drive foot to the plant foot? I agree that in the latter portions of a swing there is only force on the plant foot as the other one is hanging in the air, but during the transition you can push against the inside of the drive foot to transfer your weight on the plant foot and brace against the momentum that was created.

 

[timothy42b]

Isnt there a force couple when transitioning the weight from the drive foot to the plant foot? I agree that in the latter portions of a swing there is only force on the plant foot as the other one is hanging in the air, but during the transition you can push against the inside of the drive foot to transfer your weight on the plant foot and brace against the momentum that was created.

I don't think so. I think the drive leg may start weight forward but does not leverage against the plant foot, or at least should not.

However the COM is moving forward above ground, somewhere around the top of the hip bones, and the plant foot is applying force in the reverse direction. So the inertial force of the COM forward and the reverse force of the plant foot should be a couple in the vertical plane. If the plant foot is not directly under the line of the COM motion then there may be a couple in the horizontal plane.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think there is some variance on weight pressure distribution at the plant depending on width of stance and speed. I was surprised how much pressure was still registered on my rear foot but it might be reading my foot pushing against the shoe insole rather than the ground, but my foot also drags on the ground somewhat like GG.

 

[CoachChris]

Not meaning to be argumentative, but to some extent doesn't the brace represent a couple (in at least one dimension and potentially in 3?). I don't know your thoughts on the importance of the brace and plant leg. But it represents a force acting in a different direction to the inertia of the center of mass. If directly below that motion line, possibly 1D, but likely to be offset enough to represent a second couple and possibly a third.

Yes to your first question. I was referring to a simple couple with equal but opposite directional force vectors. But yes, a couple can be created by a single linear force acting off center to the COM.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Any thoughts out there on why a more pronounced force couple utilizing the back leg/foot doesn't increase that power for disc golf? Do we benefit more from swing speed than smash factor than ball golfers due to the lighter weights of the disc?

Or is it that the gas pedal move is in fact our way of accentuating that force couple and it's just not as centered as it is in ball golf?

 

[CoachChris]

Any thoughts out there on why a more pronounced force couple utilizing the back leg/foot doesn't increase that power for disc golf? Do we benefit more from swing speed than smash factor than ball golfers due to the lighter weights of the disc?

Or is it that the gas pedal move is in fact our way of accentuating that force couple and it's just not as centered as it is in ball golf?

The trail leg's main function is to maintain momentum (not increase or decrease unless possibly doing a standstill). If there is adequate momentum there is no need for additional trail leg push and it is just not seen in any advanced players with good plants.

If you can apply balanced momentum to your throw (let's say a 180 lb man moving their mass forward), the first goal would be learning how to properly STOP all 180 lbs so you can convert ALL of the energy into throw, BEFORE trying to figure out how to add more momentum.

The abundance of instructional chatter on the interwebs promoting trail leg push (and the accompanying 'crush the cigarette' hip/knee/foot twist) may help some people feel standstill momentum and rotation but it should only be a drill and not the foundation of a disc golf throw (IMO)