"Disc Golf Not as Green as it seems"

[JTacoma03]

Also as for disc golf vs frisbee golf. It's not that we are hiding anything like you make it sound on your site. The words are interchanglable. Mostly because the game was started with frisbee's years ago. So some of the older population still calls it that. Plus several times when I have told people what I play they look at me funny, when I tell them it's frisbee golf (or even frolf thanks sinfield) the light clicks. You also have the obvious typo mistakes with disc golf. I know first hand. Our local paper ran an article about the new local dick golf course. Also the name varies by location. It's like calling a beer a pint or a brew depending on what area of the country you are from

Yeah, I know Peter personally and can attest to his character. He's a guy that worked his ass off for McLaren and Junipero Serra on behalf of the SFDGC - whose position was to find an acceptable compromise between the community and the sport in order to have a mutually beneficial relationship - and had his life threatened in return.

This never was a fight between SFDGC and SMP. This was a positive process where new communities could be turned on to our sport, and it was turned into a PR assassination by some far-from-center activists crusading under the guise of environmentalism in order to scare the RPD enough to sit on the paperwork.

Principally, Ken doesn't have strong arguments, he's using walls of text and emotional rhetoric to try and persuade a bunch of disc golfers from outside of the area in question. All of you should place the burden of proof on him, he's not an emissary, a public official, or someone with any power other than fear mongering. He's an assassin with an agenda, picking on our sport because he perceives it as weak. He's smug, condescending, and firmly believes he's more intelligent than any of us here. He's arrogant insomuch as he creates an account on a disc golf site to sell lies about disc golf to disc golfers.

There is one positive to this though. The silver lining is that we're outgrowing the boutique, underground phase as a sport. When we start becoming a target, it should be a realization that we're growing and progressing as a community and as a sport. We must be responsible guardians of this sport, our courses, and our lifestyles as disc golfers to make damn sure we don't feed this guy any ammo. We have to work on showing the positives of the sport and minimize the negatives so that the rest of the world can see through people like Ken's phony convictions.

 

[New013]

So one of Ken's main arguments about how the course at the Golden Gate park is destroying it is that disc golf has messed up the natural habitat of birds and driven them away.

Well Ken, what have you done or what do you plan to do about the feral animals (cats) that are being fed in the park and killing and driving away the birds? What percentage of birds killed/driven away is the result of these feral cats and what percentage is the responsibility of discs?

On your site do you mention this as one of the causes of the bird depopulation in the park or do you just try to blame it all on disc golf? Have you approached the city about their policy to trap and release feral cats back in to the city and the allowance of citizens to feed feral cats within the park? Have you created a website and started a group to rally against these practices that destabilize the bird population?

 

[Peterb]

So one of Ken's main arguments about how the course at the Golden Gate park is destroying it is that disc golf has messed up the natural habitat of birds and driven them away.

Well Ken, what have you done or what do you plan to do about the feral animals (cats) that are being fed in the park and killing and driving away the birds? What percentage of birds killed/driven away is the result of these feral cats and what percentage is the responsibility of discs?

On your site do you mention this as one of the causes of the bird depopulation in the park or do you just try to blame it all on disc golf? Have you approached the city about their policy to trap and release feral cats back in to the city and the allowance of citizens to feed feral cats within the park? Have you created a website and started a group to rally against these practices that destabilize the bird population?

That's a great point actually. I've seen A LOT of feral cats out there through the years.

The thing is, the bird population is fine at GGP. Lots and lots of hawks. They do not tend to congregate unless there are yummy rodent morsels to be had. Seen plenty of great horned owls, and of course the ubiquitous raven! Many many bird species thriving just fine at GGP. The data Ken presents is anecdotal at best.

 

[Peterb]

Yeah, I know Peter personally and can attest to his character. He's a guy that worked his ass off for McLaren and Junipero Serra on behalf of the SFDGC - whose position was to find an acceptable compromise between the community and the sport in order to have a mutually beneficial relationship - and had his life threatened in return.

This never was a fight between SFDGC and SMP. This was a positive process where new communities could be turned on to our sport, and it was turned into a PR assassination by some far-from-center activists crusading under the guise of environmentalism in order to scare the RPD enough to sit on the paperwork.

Principally, Ken doesn't have strong arguments, he's using walls of text and emotional rhetoric to try and persuade a bunch of disc golfers from outside of the area in question. All of you should place the burden of proof on him, he's not an emissary, a public official, or someone with any power other than fear mongering. He's an assassin with an agenda, picking on our sport because he perceives it as weak. He's smug, condescending, and firmly believes he's more intelligent than any of us here. He's arrogant insomuch as he creates an account on a disc golf site to sell lies about disc golf to disc golfers.

There is one positive to this though. The silver lining is that we're outgrowing the boutique, underground phase as a sport. When we start becoming a target, it should be a realization that we're growing and progressing as a community and as a sport. We must be responsible guardians of this sport, our courses, and our lifestyles as disc golfers to make damn sure we don't feed this guy any ammo. We have to work on showing the positives of the sport and minimize the negatives so that the rest of the world can see through people like Ken's phony convictions.

I never felt that my life was threatened (but some disc golfers who were veterans of the 1997 meetings do), but I did receive physical threats.

The main angle used by SMP at the community meeting in 2010 (they've evolved considerably in their stance) was the 'where will the disc golfers crap?' argument. A silly one, since everyone knows when a disc golfer faces a tough putt we crap our pants. :hfive:

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

At Pinto Lake the bird argument doesn't work because the bird watching there has improved, and Bald Eagles even moved into the site, since the area was cleaned up for the 2011 Worlds. There are interviews with bird enthusiasts that support this.

Not to mention, many people that used to be afraid to walk there before the cleanup and now use it regularly for non-Disc Golf activities.

 

[Hampstead]

After wading through this thread, a few things stand out

-Emotional people can appear irrational

-Disc golfers can be their own worst enemy when it comes to public perception

-The oldest course in Columbus, Blendon Woods DGC has been around since 1985 and is also the most heavily used course in town. It looks like it. Grass is well worn, trees are pretty beat and in some places the erosion is fairly significant.

-Not every park or parcel of land is a good fit for a disc golf course

-People who passionately oppose the creation of disc golf courses should probably spend some time playing and getting to know the sport before they become crusaders against it

 

[Lewis]

People who passionately oppose the creation of disc golf courses should probably spend some time playing and getting to know the sport before they become crusaders against it

I begin to get the impression that Ken has learned just enough about disc golf to be blind to his false assumptions, and is unaware of what he does not know. This would explain, among other things, his false assumption about why we often call it "frisbee golf" to the general public. In other words, he has learned just enough about disc golf to be unaware of his own ignorance. Maybe someone should introduce him to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[JTacoma03]

So one of Ken's main arguments about how the course at the Golden Gate park is destroying it is that disc golf has messed up the natural habitat of birds and driven them away.

Well Ken, what have you done or what do you plan to do about the feral animals (cats) that are being fed in the park and killing and driving away the birds? What percentage of birds killed/driven away is the result of these feral cats and what percentage is the responsibility of discs?

On your site do you mention this as one of the causes of the bird depopulation in the park or do you just try to blame it all on disc golf? Have you approached the city about their policy to trap and release feral cats back in to the city and the allowance of citizens to feed feral cats within the park? Have you created a website and started a group to rally against these practices that destabilize the bird population?

That's a great point actually. I've seen A LOT of feral cats out there through the years.

The thing is, the bird population is fine at GGP. Lots and lots of hawks. They do not tend to congregate unless there are yummy rodent morsels to be had. Seen plenty of great horned owls, and of course the ubiquitous raven! Many many bird species thriving just fine at GGP. The data Ken presents is anecdotal at best.

All of this is true, plus...Ken still thinks our fairways are just piles of woodchips/mulch. He really hasn't stepped foot on our DG course since 2010, lol.

Either way Peter, keep fighting the good fight brother. I appreciate what you've been trying to do for disc golf in the bay area...and even though you're an Oregon fan you're alright in my book

 

[simpletwist]

I always believe that actions and solutions are much better than pissing, moaning and bitching. So I just had an epiphany. And I just acted on it. I urge everyone to contact their local club, group, league, organization to print up and distribute bumper stickers that read:

I PLAY DISC GOLF AND I VOTE

It may not do much, but bring more public awareness to who we are as a group. And that can't hurt.

So while talking to a board member of our local organization about doing this, he brought up another and I think very important side to this dilemma. Private courses are the way to go. Of course he is slightly biased since he has a beautiful course on his property. And still he recognized the importance of preserving public courses. He also suggested and I'm going to do this as soon as I finish this that I (we) contact the PDGA to print and distribute the bumper sticker. So I'm gonna do that right now.

 

[DavidSauls]

It can't hurt, but.....

A bumper sticker isn't going to have a major effect, and a player putting a bumper sticker on his car isn't exactly putting forth a big effort.

It's the people who take the time to call and talk to their parks departments, and their local elected officials, who have an impact. That, of course, is actual effort. And if far more park neighbors than disc golfers are doing so, it'll carry a lot more weight than any number of bumper stickers. Or internet rants, for that matter.

 

[Chainchaser]

This would explain, among other things, his false assumption about why we often call it "frisbee golf" to the general public. In other words, he has learned just enough about disc golf to be unaware of his own ignorance. Maybe someone should introduce him to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

When I read that I was like HUH??? The only time I use frisbee golf is when I say "Disc Golf" to someone and they give you the blank stair so then I say "You know frisbee golf" and they are like "oh OK I know what you mean".

 

[simpletwist]

It can't hurt, but.....

A bumper sticker isn't going to have a major effect, and a player putting a bumper sticker on his car isn't exactly putting forth a big effort.

It's the people who take the time to call and talk to their parks departments, and their local elected officials, who have an impact. That, of course, is actual effort. And if far more park neighbors than disc golfers are doing so, it'll carry a lot more weight than any number of bumper stickers. Or internet rants, for that matter.

I agree 100%, but like I said every little bit to gain awareness from those who are completely clueless helps. And as the sport grows more visible recognition at the mall parking lot and on the highway, at work... we'll be seen not only as a fan, but a politically active one.

 

[BrotherDave]

I always believe that actions and solutions are much better than pissing, moaning and bitching. So I just had an epiphany. And I just acted on it. I urge everyone to contact their local club, group, league, organization to print up and distribute bumper stickers that read:

I PLAY DISC GOLF AND I VOTE

That bumper sticker already exists, I got one thrown into a Marshal St order a while back.

 

[simpletwist]

Awesome I'll check it out. Now we need to get the PDGA to start handing them out with memberships.

 

[nwdiscnoob]

Hah! My course literally doesn't even have trashcans, and it's been established for over a year. The city built the course and pads, and Academy bought the baskets. I think the city expected the local club to provide something, and the club expects the city to provide more. In the meantime, the trash is everywhere! great...

So, pick it up.. I take a trash bag and gloves with me, cant tell you how quickly I fill it...every little bit helps, and gives you a right to bitch about the trash.

 

[TheTennesseeFireman]

Stephen, thanks for your thoughts. As for disc speeds, yes, 70MPH is the top of the range, but from my research, intermediate to pro players commonly achieve 50-60 MPH on long drives. These have the most potential for safety issues on long holes with hidden pins, which are hard to avoid on an 18-hole course.

In the local controversy, DGers like to use the term "frisbee golf" when speaking with the public, as this gives the idea that it's just a couple of college kids bumming around on a sunny afternoon. Public demonstrations typically involve setting up a basket and putting from a few feet away -- what's so horrible about that? Meanwhile, if I called any of you "frisbee golfers" to your face, you would take offense. Do you see what I'm getting at here? I use terms like "discs flying at highway speeds" because it is a) technically accurate, and give a better sense of the real speed, which DGers don't want to fess up to with the general public, and B) because it is much of the source of environmental damage, at least on the GGP course.

When I have been on the DG course, you can tell pretty much every time someone throws, as you hear a zzzziipp and they slice through leaves, and a crack every time it hits a tree or branch. On many fairways, the understory is mostly gone, there are few to no leaves on the lower branches of trees, and of the bark some smaller trees in the line of fire have pretty much been thrashed. You can check out our before/after pics of several of the fairways on the GGP course, showing these effects after only three years after the course's installation. You can "mitigate" by planting natives or whatever, but those tree leaves are never coming back and how many bird species can you imagine have given up trying to nest and feed in this area?

As for a 9-hole course, this has come up in several public meetings, many neighbors have suggested that this would be an interesting concept to explore. Every time it has come up, DG representatives say it it not a workable answer. The first course in GGP was a 12-hole provisionary course, and after two years of play there was such damage that Rec/Park said enough is enough (more details in the timeline I linked to previously). They found that no one really plays just nine holes, they play it twice and double the damage. This is not from us, this is what SFDGC reps themselves state. The neighbors have offered this alternative, and SFDGC/Rec/Park say it is not a workable solution.

I hear a lot of you claiming that we are overstating the environmental damage, and you are entitled to your opinion, but from our view, local DG reps are understating the damage at GGP (and the potential damage in McLaren) in a massive way.

Ken

Thanks for the answer.

Your velocity argument applies to pros and intermediate players for sure, but you overestimate how common the human threat will be. Not only are recreational players by far the most common, those who have progressed to an intermediate level and beyond are both experienced and talented enough to be able to avoid public areas. In cases where a human hazard is posed, it's not a matter of either party being at fault; it's a serious promulgation or design flaw that must be corrected.

As for the interaction with trees, yes, there are absolutely inherent limitations there. It's not realistic to expect fairways to remain pristine habitat, as your pictures demonstrate (I'll not argue them further; suffice to say that it's rather unfair to compare pictures of a sunny day before the course was even played to a cloudy one where much of the change depicted was by design). Low-hanging branches in the middle of fairways will be in the line of fire; those trees will not likely have birds nesting in them, along with the younger trees lining the fairways. The 2005 report you have listed on your website seems rather accurate: http://www.savemclarenpark.org/SMP_docs/GG_arborist_report_2005.pdf. Many of the changes that have occurred in GGP are by design, including the removal of natural grasses in favor of mulch and annual grasses, which largely accounts for the difference in "greenness" reported by you and this forum.

As the report indicates, older trees with little understory and trees shielded from impact even a few feet off the course will stand through generations with the same birds continuing to nest in them; the "bushwhacking" you described earlier almost never interferes with them, especially out west where wilder areas aren't horrifically overgrown. This is especially true in places where OB is clearly delineated (another suggestion listed in the conclusion); most people will be happy to pick up and move to the fairway rather than risk getting ruining their disc or getting poison ivy. Of course, the birds in your park may have uniquely sensitive nesting patterns; that's a matter I'm not familiar with.

I also think you're underestimating the value of a 9 hole course. Here's a link to Park Circle, a course that's amongst the most popular I've played: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=161&mode=rev. It only has 9 baskets, but 18 tee pads; not only do the players handle this setup well, but you get an even mix of those who wish to play the course once and twice. Yes, it is very open and the lawns are irrigated, but by only needing 9 holes you open up the opportunity to put these holes in more optimal area.

I have to agree with Peter on the issue of sharing with a golf course as well; it's not realistic in the slightest. There are a ton of conflicts that would emerge, amongst them the amount of available space, the massive design difference between the two types of courses, the ire of some golfers at the informality of our sport, and the fact that we're mostly volunteers who can't match the monetary resources of even the smallest of golf clubs.

Again though, many of your environmental arguments seem to be based on short-term and designed changes. It takes time for a forest to adjust to any new stimuli and for course managers to decide which trees need to be pruned or moved elsewhere. Eventually, all of the sensitive trees will be removed from the line of fire, and birds initially frightened by the noise will deem it not to be a threat. Your latest pictures on your website are from spring 2010; I imagine that if you headed out to the Golden Gate Course tomorrow, you'd see a forest that has not continued to decline, but rather improved since you last photographed it, thanks in large part to volunteers.

Thanks,
Stephen

(One last aside about the "frisbee golf" name, since that's a matter of it's own.... It basically comes down to copyright. If you aren't familiar with the origins of disc golf, Wham-O has the Frisbee name trademarked; otherwise, this site would be probably be called FGCR. Others have pointed this out in the thread; we're not so thin-skinned to get upset about being called whatever the public chooses.)

 

[steven2361]

This is my favorite line! "Lost discs cause a steady accumulation of plastic in the environment, as well as habitat damage by players frantically digging in bushes and other vegetation hunting for their favorite spins."

 

[The dude on the bike]

Lets go to his house with a UV lamp and a Camera crew.

 

[The dude on the bike]

70 mph? Jenkins said he hit 50 something so I call cough cough. This dude probably came up with all his spewage sitting indoors on a chair made of wood.

 

[beereakfast]

I must say, i'm rather impressed. Considering which side of the issue we are on, the discussion stayed reasonably civil rather than becoming a flame fest.
I've long been curious what happened to that proposal. Thanks guys for letting the thread go on for a while without being locked.