Extra Distance Potential in Pro vs. Premium Plastics?

[jubuttib]

I just scraped up a new Vector...I scraped up the wings a little, but not uniformly. I really scuffed up the bead thoroughly though, and it has a uniform rough texture as I smoothed it a bit with a towel. This disc definitely does appear to glide more now than when it was completely smooth.

How's the stability?

I just posted about it: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15566&p=340621#p340621

My mistake. I thought you meant you scraped up a new, unbeaten Vector, as opposed to the artificially beaten in you talked about in that post.

 

[JHern]

There are multiple effects that texture in plastic could have on discs. If discspeed's intuition is true, the dings and scrapes would be like vortex generators, which decrease the pressure over the boundary layer, and helps to confines the boundary layer to the surface, delay flow separation, and reduce wake drag. Wake drag is much more important for a golf ball because it is such a blunt object to begin, but it could very well have a slight effect on some discs.

 

[Jeronimo]

I would surmise it's the "slight" effects that are netting us the difference from champion to pro, not the majors.

 

[JHern]

I would surmise it's the "slight" effects that are netting us the difference from champion to pro, not the majors.

Agreed. Just to get a sense of people's perceptions, what would you say is the typical distance increase in moving from Champion to Pro, all other things (domey-ness, weather, altitude, release speed and line) being equal?

I'd like to hear from as many people as possible on this question, let's see what people are thinking. You can give percentage change, or distance in Champ vs distance in Pro. Please try to be as accurate as possible, that would be most useful.

 

[JR]

If memory serves i got a new Pro Destro flying 10-15' shorter than FR Star last in fall two years ago. Once the Pro broke in it became about 5-10' longer than the FR that remained unused in the break in period of the Pro. IIRC Pro Boss gained 15' in breaking in. Fall so cool weather and i maxed out at 400' with ultralight R-Pro Bosses then on line drives. The numbers are averages.

I've had one Pro Rhyno that broke in very fast. I didn't notice more than a couple of feet of D increase and it could have come from the fact that it flips to flat so it rises while i throw Champs and stars flat.

 

[jubuttib]

I've thrown Pro and Echo Destroyers just as long but the Pro is easier to get there. I would say the difference is something of the order of 10-20' on average, tops.

 

[XCyclone]

My MJLS will usually go about 15'-20' further than my QJLS.

Anyone ever throw a champ and pro rhyno back to back?

 

[JHern]

To be useful, y'all have to state absolute distances, the best comparison is in percent changes in over all distance.

 

[jubuttib]

To be useful, y'all have to state absolute distances, the best comparison is in percent changes in over all distance.

Well then, let's say 390' for Echo Star and 410' for Pro.

 

[Muddyboots]

I will preface this with the disclaimer that I am a dumb hammerswinger, but it would appear from reading the posts here that NEW discs, of the same mold. in different plastics that have different flight patterns, are apples and oranges. I can throw a NEW X Nuke farther than a NEW ESP Nuke, but the flight pattern isn't the same. Perhaps this isn't true for all discs. If it is true, on the other hand, then you are no longer debating whether Pro type plastics fly farther than premium plastics, but whether altered Pro type plastics fly farther than un-altered (NEW) Pro type plastics. Also, while I have the utmost respect for most of the other members here, let's not get carried away with what we "see". Science needs to be quantified. I like, but have no facilities to pursue the idea of turning blanks of the different plastics for comparison. I for one speculate that shape anomalies from the same mold in different plastics generate more differences than the materials. That is to say, Pro Destroyers fly differently because of the way Pro molds, but not because they are Pro plastic. If you could mimic the shape and dispersion of a different material closely enough, you could get the same flight with a different material. Of course, by the time you have altered the density of the other material, it might be very close to Pro in the end. This is a very interesting thread, and I will turn it back over to those who are smart enough to actually discuss it........
KP

 

[discspeed]

It seems to me that Pro goes about 5% farther than Champ...

So my MJLS flies 350' with the same throw that only gets my QJLS 332'.

 

[Marmoset]

Pro molds up and subsequently cools down differently than DX, Champ and Star. The individual disc geometry is different between a Pro and a Champ. The dome height, dome profile, wing concavity, wing angle, shoulder radius, PLH, etc. is different between the plastics. Even if it isn't vastly different there will usually be a slight difference. So throwing a domey Pro is different than throwing a flat Champ. And I firmly believe disc geometry accounts for the more drastic flight variations we see when throwing discs. I won't discount the effects of skin textures but I still believe the shape is more important.

But assuming we are discounting the difference between disc shapes then...
my deflashed, slightly beat 167g Pro Wraith goes 420' while my brand new, flashing intact, 175g Champ Destroyer only goes 390'.
:wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[Fizzy]

Stability aside, something about Pro plastic makes the discs go farther than the other plastic.

Maybe, that's just speculation, and a difficult statement to prove. Anyways, I'm not convinced that Pro has intrinsically less drag than other plastics, based on my own experience chucking discs.

Either pro is faster, glides more, or both.

This is mincing bad terminology. Plastic doesn't "glide," or have a "speed."

Here's some speculation about the pro-glide correlation.

When discs get beat up, three things happen

#1 The disc (to a small extent) is no longer round/symmetric. This causes a huge loss of HSS and some loss of LSS.
#2 The nose of the disc gets bent down. This reduces HSS a lot and LSS a little less. Put differently, the disc now has a lower parting line. More air flowing over the top and less resistance on bottom leads to understability.
#3 The disc surface is scuffed/textured. This reduces HSS and LSS and tends to produce flights with a gentle turn late in the flight.

Speculation: Discs in a highly grippy plastic behave as if their surface is already scuffed/textured (as in #3). Pro plastic doesn't just stick to your hand, it also gets more action on the air. In other words, discs in grippy plastics are will behave like discs that have type #3 damage: they're more likely to turn late in flight or hold straight or appear to have more glide because they're penetrating forward instead of fading.

I've always wanted to test this theory: get a new champ leopard, deflash it, then take a wire brush to it and scuff the surface all up. Make it so every bit of area is covered in tiny little scratches, so it's lost all of it's "shine" and looks more like a beat champ disc. I bet on throw number #1 it would behave a whole lot like a Pro Leopard with similar PLH.

In conclusion: I think pro is probably slower if anything, and I doubt it "glides" more in the sense that it generates more lift. I think it just waits longer before getting stable and hyzering out. It flies more neutrally at low speed which extends the straight portion of the flight. This adds up to more distance.

I like to theorize about this stuff. Let me know if you think this is bogus or if you have a competing theory.

 

[JR]

A Leo wouldn't work as a test disc because Champ is shaped differently from DX.

 

[discspeed]

A Leo wouldn't work as a test disc because Champ is shaped differently from DX.

This is true about all discs, not just Leos.

 

[discspeed]

In conclusion: I think pro is probably slower if anything, and I doubt it "glides" more in the sense that it generates more lift. I think it just waits longer before getting stable and hyzering out. It flies more neutrally at low speed which extends the straight portion of the flight. This adds up to more distance.

I like to theorize about this stuff. Let me know if you think this is bogus or if you have a competing theory.

The reason I wonder if Pro plastic is faster is because I've consistently seen new Pro discs outfly their similar shaped Star and Champ counterparts into headwinds. I've also observed them going farther on a low line in the same weight and I've also seen new pro discs skipping more. So pro discs go farther for me even when new and overstable.

 

[JR]

A Leo wouldn't work as a test disc because Champ is shaped differently from DX.

This is true about all discs, not just Leos.

Leo is a pretty extreme example. Do they use different mold parts between DX and Champ? Champ is blunter on the outside for example.

 

[Peot]

I'm beginning to wonder what would happen if the major companies were to mold some of their "premium only" distance drivers in pro/x etc and how the warp speeders change from baseline to premium. It seems like Discraft does this much more frequently than Innova. Would cooling make certain molds illegal/too flippy/completely different? Or does nobody want to throw a pro xcal for example?

 

[flightpath]

My Eco star destroyer consistently outflies my pro destroyer both fly the same line and height and what about repair monkey hackers that can only get d out of premium drivers got to bet the nose shape