First form check!

[Brychanus]

Hi all,

Just joined and said hi on the newbie thread. I've done my best to learn and apply a lot of advice from this forum, which has taken me a long way from my sub-100' throws back in January. Without knowing it, many of you have helped me enjoy this game more and more, and I think I'm hooked for life. So thank you for all your help so far!

Recently, I've started to have a hard time picking out what to work on next, so I'm taking the plunge and asking for your help. I'm willing to put in time in the field whenever I can grab it.

For context, I'm starting to get my neutral 9-10 speeds reliably to 350' on a golf line on flat shots or slight hyzer flips. I'm occasionally getting neutral or understable faster discs to 380' on flat shots. Most of this progress has come from quite a bit of fieldwork in the past couple months.

I'm coming to your forum now because last week I had exactly *one* throw with a 9 speed break 400' recently on an intended golf line. All I can say is that everything just felt "right" about the throw, but since it was off the tee during a round I had no video to help re-create what it looked like. I got a distinct feeling of lag, balance, and timing that made it seem almost effortless, so I imagine it was close to what folks here talk about. So I want to believe I can learn to do it on command, but I'd be really grateful for advice since I'm struggling a bit. Any comments about (1) what I should keep doing and (2) the biggest priorities to work on next would be awesome.

Here's a video from within the past week at full speed:
https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/638706086

and 8x slow:
https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/638706137

This was fairly representative a putter shot; I tend to get these to about 260-275' when I give them height. If this isn't enough to provide some initial thoughts about overall form, I will try to get a couple angles from driver shots once I get back to a large field.

Much <3 in advance & I look forward to chatting!

 

[sidewinder22]

Your arm action looks good, but you are barely swinging your shoulder any linear distance. Swing the shoulder back and forth over the knees.

You also appear to plant rather soft on the front foot, instead of shifting everything more suddenly into the plant like crushing a can.

 

[Brychanus]

Awesome, thank you sw22!

I have a quick follow up question about crushing the can. It's possible that my rear leg action/loading is causing problems in the plant. I've struggled with exactly how to do this for weeks now. I saw this video elsewhere on the forums:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGLzbEMe4qo&t=143s&ab_channel=TreadAthletics

I tried this at home, and realized that when I shift on my rear into the plant, I tend to have my weight loaded more into my quads. This seems to cause me to shift "over top", and I feel like I'm carrying momentum forward over the plant leg.

I tried a few more full x-steps until I felt the loading more in my glute of my rear leg. It seemed like my hips rocked more into the plant from certain positions, and it felt like I was getting a more pronounced toe-to-heel "crush" with the weight shift. As you and others have talked about, I tried to focus on moving toward a sitting/chair position where I'm bearing weight on the balls of my feet, but preventing myself from falling on my butt with my glutes.

Does that sound like I'm on the right track before I take it back to the field to drill some serious crushing? I don't have a hockey/baseball/tennis background so this part has been tricky to feel out.

 

[Brychanus]

should say "and realized that when I shift from my rear leg into the plant,"

 

[Brychanus]

Update fresh off of fieldwork today. TL;DR: this is awesome. Forgive my gab, but I'm excited.

I did something uncharacteristic and chose to leave the video aside. I just focused on sw22's advice, and focused on the feeling.

The first half of the session, I just really tried to either get my shoulder to open more or to crush the can with confidence. I got nice and loose, and just chose to trust that my top line/arm mechanics would be good enough for now. Just nice, controlled x-steps the whole time with the emphasis on the final step and plant.

I only had time to get to the local park, where I can find fairly open lines up to 320' or so mostly flat, or uphill or downhill 10'. I stuck with neutral 3-speed putters. I chose a target for each salvo just to keep from sailing directly into nearby moving vehicles, but found angles where I could safely accept about 20 degrees of slop in the throws.

I measured some throws. At first, they were mostly in my normal range, but I started focusing on when my bracing felt really fluid and firm, or when my shoulders felt maximally open, but w/ an upright spine and elastic.

Then I just really started focusing on rocking into the plant step and feeling my weight shift from the x-step, and just let the steps stay compact but expand naturally with the shoulder extension.

Every once in a while, a putter would push 300' of flat distance, maybe a bit more, and I got that nearly effortless, snappy feeling - almost like the throw was over before I knew it started. A nice, easy, balanced walk up and then SNAP through the pocket.

Toward the end of the session it was getting dark and I had to go make dinner, so I just decided to unload the bag on the uphill line and loosen up on the accuracy. My previous best on this shot usually would stall out around 250'. This time I focused on a nice, easy, "McBeth-like" walk up into the final pitcher's stride into the plant with a nice open shoulder. Suddenly, half of the putters were getting up 270'-280' at about 10' uphill. A few of them were even in C1. It felt nice, light, fluid, and snappy. This is nuts!!

Of course, the accuracy, timing, balance, and perfect positions weren't always there. I also noticed some nose up creeping into the putter shots that I had to consciously reset from time to time. But it feels like there is a new throwing dynamic in there that's trying to come out. Just striding confidently from the glutes-loaded drive leg into that crush and trusting the brace and follow through more than before felt huge. Loading up that shoulder extension was a bit erratic, but kind of liberating and felt awesome when I synced it to snap it back through the brace.

The coolest part was that the more I got into the dynamic feeling, the more I felt like I could just keep throwing. When I got a better feeling of the stride, upright extension, and balance, the disc would just snap out with minimal effort and I was ready for more. Before, I'd get pretty tired from using muscles inefficiently. Also, recently I'd been getting a slight tug in my pec and anterior deltoid, but the changes today seem to not have caused that at all.

I think next fieldwork session I'll try to get to a field where there's no risk of hitting anything. I'm curious what happens if I can forget about aim or bystanders completely and just let them fly. I'll stick with these first two tips for a couple more sessions and report back!

 

[Brychanus]

Getting a (better) grip!

Short version/TL;DR: Having new problems with grip/entering the hit when "loading the bow" and "crushing the can". I came across older gems here and elsewhere about the "suitcase/deep flight plate grip" and am hoping distance throwers could give any pointers about that or any other grip considerations.

Context
Hi again all, I want to ask about grip and how it interacts with the hit. I've been playing with sw22's advice more, and been doing ok with putters, mids, and low speed fairways, but I'm now having trouble keeping angles consistent and transferring the power to the disc after I brace harder, especially for faster discs.

Before, I was using more of a "pinch point", and I felt like my wrist was "bouncy" through the hit. Most of the pressure is through an index-to-thumb point around where the flight plate connects to the rim. I think I naturally developed this style when trying to get a loose, "whippy" arm that redirects and enters the hit. This seems to do fine out to maybe 325'. But I think I inadvertently developed a habit that might not scale to harder/better braced throws.

As I'm learning to better "load the bow" through the shoulder and "crush the can," my angles & release points with harder throws & higher speed discs are (as expected) coming out as a mess, especially as I'm trying to throw over 350'. I don't want to change too much at once, but my old grip definitely feels kind of week and unpredictable through the hit now, and the previous "bouncy" feeling in my wrist into the redirect feels *too* bouncy and hard to control, if that makes sense. I can already tell my body is trying to compensate with bad mechanics, so I wanted to nip it in the bud and search a bit about grips and distance drives.

I came across the suitcase/DFP grip and allowing more pronation entering the hit and that seemed promising when I messed around with it in my basement and compared it to motion of throwing a hammer/laterally hitting a nail, but I want to ask the sages for pointers before I go messing myself up!

Am I making sense? What would you recommend?

Any thoughts are appreciated, as always.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure. Pics of your grip are worth a 1000 words. The suitcase/DFP grip feels awkward to me.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3440757&postcount=4

 

[Brychanus]

Yes! I've attached two images. Grip 1 is my typical grip. Grip 2 is my version of the DFP/suitcase grip. The position of the thumb in Grip 2 is the one that seemed to be the most natural after fussing around a bit.

I wrote some notes on each grip image. Even though all I consciously changed was the thumb placement and increased my thumb pressure down into the plate, a few other things immediately changed. The notes are copied here in case they are hard to see in the images.

Grip 1
Left:
-Thumb near edge w/moderate pressure
-Emphasis on establishing "pivot" point near index finger

Center:
-Wrist is actively flexing downward to maintain nose alignment with forearm
-Floppy "gate hinge" wrist

Right:
-The fingers pull the rim into the palm. When I throw I'm very aware of a "pivot point" at the index finger. Pulling any harder on the other 3 fingers feels strained and binds the wrist/ forearm up.
-More pressure @ index finger. The pressure gradient decreases farther from the index finger


Grip 2
Left:
-Thumb farther in with firmer pressure
-No emphasis on establishing "pivot" point near index finger

Center:
-Wrist is not doing any noticeable work to align nose with forearm
-Wrist can hinge, but is slightly more pronated and a bit stiffer. Back of hand stays more toward the sky entering the pocket

Right:
-The fingers pull the rim into the palm. Much less aware of any "pivot point" along the rim. It feels natural to apply uniform pressure across all fingers.
-Close to Equal pressure @ each finger.

 

[Brychanus]

Also, the shape of my hand may be relevant, so an image is attached. My hand is proportional in length to my height (6'1''), but I've got a relatively square palm and my fingers aren't particularly long. I have trouble fan gripping distance drivers since my middle and ring fingers can barely extend off of the rim.

 

[sidewinder22]

Grip 2 definitely looks better. I wouldn't call that a DFP grip though, it looks similar to my thumb position about where the inside rim meets the flight plate and clamps down across the middle finger, and hooked index finger wrapped around the wing. I think you might be confusing grip pressure and pivot point. You can have very little grip pressure and be a pivot point on the index finger/thumb, pressure should be relaxed and only adding firmness to maintain control/leverage as you accelerate the disc.

I think your palm might be oriented a little off, especially if you have issue with fan grip. So the back edge of the disc next to your wrist (red and purple lines on your pics), the 1st grip had disc edge far down by pinky, grip 2 has disc higher in palm. Keep going higher with the back edge, and spread the index finger further away from others. You should be able to easily take the index finger off the rim and have control with other fingers.

Your grip is more like a uni-claw grip with too much pressure on the fingers and not enough space between index finger. Play with Bratten's 2 finger grip in post #10, you should feel different pressure points between the index and other fingers, I also show how to do this in the grip and alignment vid above. You want more space between your index finger and the others so the index is the more wrapped around the rim like a trigger and can be loose then squeeze or pull the trigger at the very end - look at Josh Anthon's index finger and thumb pad off the disc at the top of the backswing, so he has compete control of the disc between the other fingers and base of the thumb, then pulls the trigger during the swing progressively. It really does feel like pulling a trigger. I believe Jussi does this as well.

 

[Brychanus]

I think you're saving me from wasting a lot of time in the field again

I re-read your earlier grip post and this one. I've definitely been confusing grip pressure and pivot point. I also think I was so focused on aligning the "front" of the disc between the index/middle knuckle that I didn't spend any time thinking about the "rear"! :doh:

I made new Grip 3 (attached).

I'm intentionally trying to get the "rear" of the disc higher along the palm and up snugly against the muscle at the base of the thumb. When the rear of the disc is there, the index finger naturally needs to track forward a bit. In this position, if I try to index finger curled under much more than it is it will start to pull the rear of the disc back down again. However, I can remove my thumb and index finger completely, and the disc is held secure by the other three fingers snug under the base of the thumb. It does feel a little more like I'm gripping a pistol or an extended hammer in this position.

How's this look?

I'm having way too much fun doing some late night grip-smithing!

 

[Brychanus]

Got some time out today. I can taste it now.

I have a stack of I-blend Pharaohs in varying weights/stabilities. It only happened once, but I hit about 400' on an intended Hyzer flip line a bit left of my target. I had several more in the 360-370' range and a couple to 380'. When I was hitting them right, it felt completely different than my old, over-muscled throw. The disc that was previously just a bit too stable for me suddenly was getting the second longest throws, and all of them were showing turn that I never saw before when I hit a good line. Even the bad throws were different: the too-low ones would fly laser straight and faster until they dropped, and the too-high ones traveled noticeably further before hyzering out and just... looked somehow better.

I set up the grip almost like I was going to use the Bonopane, then settle into Grip 3. It seemed to help the alignment in the palm a bit more consistently. The grip was definitely more confident than my "hinge-y" Grip 1 and the nose angle was generally much better.

I had some problems getting my balance. I got one video that was less useful than I'd hoped, but I could tell that I was still rushing into the throw/muscling/loading into my quads and not glutes too much on more throws than not. But there were a couple that looked like the brace inherited the momentum and my top line did its job automatically.

I definitely am trying to fix too much at once. If I got one part right, I'd often rush and lose either my plant crush, grip strength/timing, shoulder extension, or balance, or some combination of them. It was just so easy for my body to try to throw harder/faster using things I KNOW are wrong now. Very irritating. I guess that's to be expected. My knee is a little cranky, probably from letting too much come over top of it and through the brace during the rotation. On the flip side, it was insane how easy the longest throws felt when I hit them.

I think next time I'm going to really try to focus only dialing in the timing of the hit and letting the can crush get a firm plant. Now that I've seen and felt how different it looks I have something to do more intentionally.

Last note: I have a newfound respect for the serious skill it takes to control high speed discs consistently. Minor differences in nose angle or angle of attack have such a huge influence on the distance and line. I'll stick with these Pharaohs until I learn them well enough to have a couple golf lines.

Ok, enough for now - once I make sure my soft tissues are happy I'll get back out there and get a better video so we can see how it's going!

Thanks sw22: the game is starting to change, and you're a saint! Let's see where this goes.

PS: I also changed my fan grip a bit to fix the rear alignment, and that's already seeming better too!

 

[Brychanus]

The body felt good today, so I went to my local field during lunch for some putter throws. I spent most of the time doing nothing but consciously try to get a better glute-loaded lateral stride and firmer brace each time. There is some variability, and here's a video of a few representative shots ranging between about 70-85% effort.

Some putter throws

What do you see?

Also, the "trigger pull" timing of my new grip is getting a little more intuitive already (and feels really cool), so taking it slower is already helping!

Edit: oh, a guy walked by and chatted about frisbee sports and say "wow, those are going really far". I said he was being kind, and that I have a good teacher ^.^

 

[sidewinder22]

X-step looks long and putting you off balance behind rear foot. Front foot strides too far diagonal to the outside, never really kicks inward creating torque like Lizotte.

 

[Brychanus]

Roger that. One question- when you mention the internal rotation of the front leg in crush the can, is this just part of the set up of the step as I plant the foot? That is, if I set the Hershhyzer balance and stride properly, is the torque we want to get an automatic consequence if I do it right?


Going to Hershyzer 2 and practice the stride a couple days before I get back out there.

 

[Brychanus]

Wow - I just now was hershyzer2-ing. I think I realized that I'd been also cheating at the drill before today.

Now, when I focus on letting gravity/my weight stay centered and shift forward and force my upper spine to stay totally vertical, I can feel the plant and brace, but the floor shakes a bit (I weigh 245 lbs and have an old house!).

I also "reversed" the drill back to the first of the three steps in the x step. My body *really* wants to cheat the weight back as I transition into the second step. That forces me to have to push harder off my glute to get any momentum. But if I have my weight right ahead of the second step, I fall right into the firm Hershyzer stance as we'd expect. This also made me realize that I misapplied the "brace from behind you" advice from Shawn Clement's video - I took it all the way back behind my second step!

The question about internal/rotation & torque still applies if you have a second!

 

[sidewinder22]

Roger that. One question- when you mention the internal rotation of the front leg in crush the can, is this just part of the set up of the step as I plant the foot? That is, if I set the Hershhyzer balance and stride properly, is the torque we want to get an automatic consequence if I do it right?

If you do the Open to Closed Drill in the Crush the Can like Lizotte, everything rotates back internal to the rear leg driving/shifting everything forward from behind.

 

[Brychanus]

Got it, thanks! Getting on it.

 

[Brychanus]

Drilled a bunch at home late last night/early this AM. I just did some fieldwork because I want to make sure I understand how the drills relate to the throws before I go astray.

What do you see?

Two videos throwing into the net:
(1) Onestep throws.
-Here, I'm focusing on Hershyzer Pt2 and the internal rotation/Lizotte crush/buttwipe.
(2) X-Step.
-I had trouble getting my balance and the Lizotte crush/internal rotation at the same time, so I just focused on my balance. Before, you noticed it was back, so I tried to keep my weight and body ahead rather than atop/behind my steps.

Notes/findings from field throws:
(a) One step:
-These felt much more fluid, powerful, and accurate than any one steps I've thrown before.
-In the attached images, I threw from inside the net and parked three neutral mids in a row at a pole about 260' uphill!

(b) X-Step:
- Compared to yesterday, I felt like I was loaded in my glutes with my weight more moving ahead of me through each step, and letting the plant catch the forward momentum.
-While it feels much better & fluid, getting the Lizotte rotation/buttwipe was fraught. I might have gotten it a couple times when I slowed down to a crawl, and I bested my previous best mid shot by 30' once.
-Even without much internal rotation/buttwipe, I was suddenly turning over Comets and Pures that would stay pretty neutral before today even when I was sure I had a clean pocket/no OAT.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your rear foot heel is still flat on the ground after your front heel plants, and trying to push/drive too late. You shouldn't have both heels on ground at same time, one should be going up when other is coming down like walking or running.

I would recommend walking perpendicular to target like Elephant Walk Drill or One Leg Drill. Need to get you to into a different natural movement pattern like walking. Walk down the stairs, dropping forward lower into the plant off the rear leg before rotating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487