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First form check!

Awesome - you nailed it again, in that last video I felt more like I was sliding/falling more than walking into the last step. I've been doing the Elephant and Swivel drills and some dry runs of the one step and X-step this morning at home.

Swivel stairs in particular is really helping get the feeling of internal rotation in the rear leg before shifting all the weight more fluidly and completely to the plant foot in one motion. When I've tried the drill before I'd been cheating & kind of shuffling to the side without getting good rear hip internal rotation. I think that explains why I was having trouble making it feel like a "walk".

Now, when I try to apply the feeling to the X-step, I can still keep my momentum moving forward fluidly. In the X/second to last step, the rear hip cocks back a bit with internal rotation as my body move forward. Then, the front foot receives the weight as the heel of the back foot comes up. At the same time, I can feel my rear arm helps "collect"/accelerate the momentum, and it feels like my forearm gets heavy as it enters the pocket - just about the time that I'd "pull the trigger" with my new grip.

The transition from the rear foot all the way through the throw feels like one movement and I end up balanced completely upright. I've had this feeling before, but hadn't figured out how to replicate it until now!

Hopefully this is on the right track. I get to play a round tomorrow AM at a course with a few long holes, so I'll see if I can drill a bit more and then apply this lesson & report back!
 
First progress report & story from the form trenches!

TL;DR: Sw22 is nailing it again. Today was a battle between the "new" and "old" hips. My total score was worse, but I expected that. When I got the hips swiveling, it was like being on autopilot. Game. Changer. Going to take a few rest days then get a new form vid. Read on if you please for updates and a quick story!

~~~Updates~~~
Phew, tough round on the long tees!

First observation: Old muscle memory seems much harder to override on a course & tees I've played before. Release point is way left due to increased speed, body needs to learn to go with the flow and develop new muscle memory at different ranges and angles.

Bad news is that for shorter ranges and when throwing on uneven terrain, my body still really wants to strong arm it. I aggravated a couple soft tissues I'd stressed previously with my worse mechanics. I took that as a serious warning sign to slow down and try to massage in the new mechanics even if my release point was harder to predict.

Good news is that my body already seems to be taking the hint for longer distances. For all the bomber holes, I carefully practiced my walk up and focused on nothing but the walk fluidity and hip movement until it felt like the drills, and let the disc do its thing. A few of my early drives were too high (for some reason I kept botching my pull line early in the round, maybe because I was focused at first on getting my swivel hips), but any one where I tried for 400' of distance felt easy and snappy, and the ugly hyzer lines were still making good forward progress. Grip/trigger pull felt great and I didn't have to think much about it at all after I put the disc in my hand. Stable mids are getting very comfortable to throw, might have a little OAT creeping in affecting less stable mids.

~~~Story time~~~
More good news is that I got two crushes (for me) with the same stable/neutral driver I'd practiced with.

The first shot was on a beautiful close to 800' Par 4 set up for a pro event that had a slight uphill off the tee over a crest that leads to an expansive field. My tee shot wasn't great, but got my just over the crest with a look down at the basket that sits on a wedding cake platform nestled behind guardian trees. I figured with more than 400' to go it was time to go for it. It felt like I nailed the new hip motion. I went OB right, but I'm almost certain it was because I didn't angle my walk up correctly. But watching that thing fly a long, flat gentle S line made my blood rush. If I'd lined the angle up right I'd have had a close to pin-high birdie look on a 700' hole after a mediocre uphill tee shot. That has never been possible for me before now.

The second shot is my favorite since I've started. The 730' Par 4 has a moderately tough gap maybe 100' off the tee, then a long open stretch, and finally a wooded ending segment to the left and slightly downhill to the basket. I have never scored before. Learning from my last time there, I used a mellow fairway off the tee. Again, a bit too high when thinking about my hips and slowung the throw. It landed safe and a bit short and left into some slight rough, but had well cleared the first gap. More importantly, I was still in position with decent footing for my new walkup. I practiced a couple until I was pretty sure I had the swivels and alignment right. I let it rip, and that thing flew like no other shot before. It easily cleared the entire remaining field and penetrated forward into the woods, measuring about 390'. I skipped it up the short remaining distance to the tee for my first par!

For both throws, it felt like one controlled, easy motion at about 80% effort. The idea that I'm already developing usable golf shots at nearly 400' in two weeks feels unreal!

Continued thanks sw22, this is outstanding. My very experienced friend commented how my form has come along and I credited you.

Gonna give the body a deserved break after asking a lot from it this week. Will get back at it shortly w/ vid when the body's at 100%!
 
Back at it today. I am now much more comfortable and consistent with the swivel/buttwipe and am getting the internal rotation in my rear leg. I can also tell what upper body/shoulder positions best help facilitate the hip swivel and it feels like one connected unit. I still need to remind myself sometimes, but I am finding it easier to start w/ my balance poised forward and carry it all the way through the x-step. My release points and grip are more consistent in practice and on the course.

Let's keep it going, two vids included. In both, I'm throwing max weight Buzzzes with a bit of height at a target on a hillside ~300' away.

What do you see?

(1) Video 1 is a few shots where I'm focusing on not much but trying to get the heel-toe dynamic into the plant in the x-step. I'm not sure I'm fully getting it. These throws are ~80% effort.

(2) Video 2 is of MAX effort to see how it's going and observe what breaks. I was getting some of my longest throws, but it usually didn't feel great. I see my throwing shoulder frame bunching up in still frames but am not sure what's cause & what's effect.
 
Ninja update: Got one last session in during vacation. After re-watching the last video I thought I could do a little better before getting more feedback. Today, I was really trying to pull all the concepts together so far, and especially get the walk directly into the plant.

Notes: Today, it was pretty easy to keep my weight forward & get rear leg internal rotation every time. I also felt my weight shifting faster and more fluidly into the plant than yesterday. Some of the throws felt like there was no break in momentum from the first step through the release, like I was ripping the disc from a whip that started at my feet and ended at my fingertips. I was seeing late turn on Buzzzes that I don't typically get, and it felt easier to throw nearly as far as my max effort shots from yesterday but with maybe 85% effort today. I felt like I was putting less stress on my body overall.

Video: I've included 3 new shots at various trajectories here. I'll stop video spamming now & cool it until further feedback.

3 Shots

Specific questions:
1. Heels & toes - While my weight is loaded on the balls of my feet and I can feel my weight shifting much more fluidly from behind into the plant, I see in freeze frames that the rear leg heel is still staying down a frame or two. I seem to really be struggling with that despite the drills and improved feeling. What am I missing? :wall:
2. Shoulders - these three shots illustrate that my shoulders seem fairly aligned with the flight plane. Is that right, and should I worry about the "bunching" I saw at especially high trajectories (e.g., the third shot in this new video)?
3. Follow through - I'm coming forward after the throw a bit more than I did before. Is that a symptom of something else I need to fix? I can't tell if I just need to focus on staying balanced upright or if something has gone awry before the plant.
 
I see the long x-step. It's like my body is afraid to commit my weight fully forward. I'll return to the drills and force myself to take the shortest possible step and see if I can convince my body to just let the acceleration happen rather than fighting it.

I think I see what you mean with the arm. Not sure where that's coming from, but it feels like it's related to my weight still being too far back in the x-step.

Double dragon seems to be helping the weight & timing (and is fun to do). Will give it some work and report back. Thanks for your patience!
 
These seem to be helping!

Did a bit more last night/this morning revisiting Hershyzer, Double dragon, and the postures in these drills. I also experimented with a Double Dragon arm motion pattern using the stance/hip/weight shift in the Clement video here. With either version of the drill, it feels like as my plant foot/weight settles forward, the throwing arm is at the apex of a pendulum and being accelerated along the path it naturally wants to take rather than extending back and then getting yanked. Seems like my arm was definitely trying to compensate for a bad/delayed weight shift in that last video.

Then, I did x-steps without a disc and actively shortened it as much as possible. The outer edge of my x-stepping foot is aligned with the instep of the leading foot. This keeps my weight forward and I feel the same acceleration that I get from the Hershyzer drill and my one-step shots. The x-step heel is coming up as the weight shifts because it has no other option.

As you've indicated elsewhere, I found that the angle of the rear foot matters a lot. There is a sweet spot where if the x-step foot is angled correctly and the reachback is angled/timed right, my body naturally loads the hips and gets internal rotation as my weight continues to move forward. If the rear foot goes too far back, the hips loose the ability to transfer power/weight effectively. If the rear foot is too perpendicular to the target, the hips can't rotate and load properly.

I'll drill a bit more and see if I can transfer it to the field at next opportunity!
 
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Back at it.

First vid is a few dry runs into the reachback trying to reinforce the feel of the weight shift.

Second vid is fieldwork throws with variable effort aiming to let my momentum and gravity accelerate me into the plant. Trying to find the ideal xstep and plant stride lengths. Felt like some were better than others. Throws with better weight transfer & balance felt much snappier and easier on the body.

Weight Shift Drill

Some throws

How are we looking?
 
Messy. I don't think the x-step is helping you learn how to move fundamentally. I would focus on "standstill" or one leg drill, or elephant walk or 1-2" weightshift instead of 6' long.

1. You are landing very flat footed on both feet.

2. Your left knee action is backwards. You are rising into the plant instead of falling.

3. Your left arm is dragging behind your body.

4. Your right arm is rotating backwards into the power pocket. If you are going to hold the disc wing down like that at the top of backswing, then it should come into the power pocket still wing down with humerus still internally rotated, instead of rotating externally to flat.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948
 
Re-watched these all & my own vid and I think I see these problems now. Let me confirm I've got a reasonable understanding and action plan for these 4 pts:

1. Elephant walk has been feeling more and more natural the past week, but I inadvertently have been keeping the low heel position from the drill vid in my throws. I confused my weight being forward on the balls of my feet to be "good enough" to facilitate the shift. But I need to be in a better position to allow the weight to move forward and down. Even though you are relatively flat-footed in your drill vid, I can clearly see you are still shifting weight down and forward into the throw.

2. Spend more time on One leg. Then, to add connect the One leg/ideas from Clement vid into my standstills, I can practice starting with a high rear heel position & hinge/weight shift forward and down into the plant.

3. The rear arm lag looks like it might be a new emergent problem after working on the weight shift but screwing up pts 1 & 2. I'll keep an eye on whether the swim move is fixed by 1 & 2 and revisit as needed.

4. Sorry, I misunderstood you about the arm mechanics last time. To make sure I get it, I attached a picture of me vs. Simon throwing 350'. He still has a pronated wrist deep in the power pocket, whereas I've already supinated to flat before the pocket w/ associated external humerus rotation. For some reason, it has always felt more natural for me to start "wing down" - I can try to just let this position carry into the pocket. If I understand it from your other posts (I may not), it should just passively unfurl into the correct position for ejection at the hit. Please let me know if I'm still missing the idea! You observed my arm mechanics looked better when I started flat, so if this is fraught I could try to return to that.

The still frame photo also show how I'm pretty flat-footed, rising instead of falling into the plant, and lagging the rear arm relative to Simon.

Really appreciate it as always. I'll keep working to clean this up.
 

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  • WristPosition11.17.2021.jpg
    WristPosition11.17.2021.jpg
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4. Your hand should be on top of the disc with flexed/curled wrist if you have the wing down at the top. Your grip is on the leading edge with the wrist extended, so you have lost a ton of leverage against the CoM of the disc.
 
That makes sense. It also doesn't look like my arm ever corrects it to cock it in so it can pull the nose around through the hit. Probably also putting some weird forces on my shoulder.

Seems like these problems are all related. If I do one leg and then load my weight back for a pretend standstill, but put my rear heel much higher into an athletic posture and cock my hips, my rear hip gets the hinge and my weight naturally accelerates forward AND down like my new Elephant walks and Hershyzer. Weight is moving such that it accelerates the arm coming down from the apex. The off arm swims and accelerates shortly after that. I follow through fully balanced on the right leg without thinking about it. In this dynamic, the reach back has less wing down (It's still somewhat present), but I don't feel the impulse to supinate it and externally rotate the humerus. It also removes any uncomfortable torque on the plant knee. When I was doing the xstep it felt like the plant was more established and I was getting over my fear of committing the weight, but now it's clearer that I ended up kind of dragging the rear of my frame along for the ride.

Only vid will tell, so I'll get some real standstill throws at next opportunity. Thanks!!!
 
Backed up to standstill and one leg. Hopefully these vids will help triage fundamental movement issues.

Weight shift & Standstills
Yesterday I did some elephant walks and standstills with a very short weight shift distance in the field. I did a few loose windups before each standstill to try and feel the connection between the weight shift and shoulder pendulum action. I did not yet put a particular focus on the arm action & rotation for now.

Elephant Walks

Swings & standstills


One steps, weight, drive leg
I woke up realizing that my rear leg action & caginess about prior (but resolving) knee issues might be contributing to problems. If the following is wrong/too far ahead please let me know.

I re-read the Drive Leg Mechanics content & triple extension content. I can confirm that I feel like I have been getting better foot flexion/eversion and knee extension, but I'm not sure my hip action and weight transfer from rear to front is correct. As late as yesterday, it was like I was getting sequential chain: the rear leg would stride into the plant, and then afterwards I was getting the hip swiveling action, leaving some energy and the arm behind as my weight shifted forward. Instead, should it be more like the "triple extension" starts activating the hip rotation as I'm striding forward, and then the plant "collects" the momentum as the hips continue to rotate, accelerated by the arm, and then rotates through the hit?

Today, I focused on that idea & took a vid of a couple one steps, here again w/out much focus on the arm. I also feel like I'm more loaded & slightly higher on my rear ball of foot slightly more forward and down than before in this small range of motion. Perhaps I should step onto a plant leg with more knee flexion? Hopefully this helps identify how everything interacts from the ground/drive leg forward.

One steps
 
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Ewalk looked ok on the first couple steps each way, but then you started rushing at the end. Keep going with a long heavy swing.

One steps, not a big fan a full step starting feet together like that. Start in wider stance like baseball batter and take a half or quarter step just 3-6" step like I'm doing below. You are also stepping NW instead of either north or west(ewalk). One or the other, not both. Setup with feet offset and stride straight forward.

Your motion pattern is screwy on the one steps. You bend both knees starting the backswing instead of straightening the back knee to post up on it to turn back away striding targetward.

You want to land on a more extended foot/leg to break your fall like landing from a jump. You do not want to bend your front leg into the plant, nor bend the back leg in backswing. One leg bends while the other extends like walking. If you stand feet together and bend one knee and extend the other knee it rotates your pelvis. Watch Paul's front leg planting firmly.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973



 
What a mess! I'm going to focus on this stage w/ drills while throwing less discs through a leaky & dangerous system.

I watched McBeth & your Onestep again, and this Clement one for the first time. I was looking especially for the rear leg extension action & timing each one. This morning, I aimed to the key leg action into a pendulum drill, which will help me to check my comprehension. Here are two vids of me drilling to see if it's looking better:

1. Drive Leg Pendulum System: Here I'm starting with a wider stagger stance like your own BH video. I start by turning into the backswing with no arm action, just trying to get the drive leg extension while standing in place. Then, I add the throwing Dingle Arm. Finally, I add more rear Dingle arm/shoulder action. Not sure about my drive foot angle. How is the rear leg action? What else?
Vid 1

2. New One Steps: My goal was to start with my rear foot's toe aligned to my plant foot's heel and use your wider/batter's stance. I'm using the floorboards to try and keep my plant stride on that same plane (moving North). I load the backswing and then use drive leg extension to accelerate the pendulum. My plant stride still really wants to cheat NW, so I'm going to have to work hard on that. I picked some swings that I thought looked more "true North" to see if I'm getting the idea. Thoughts?
Vid 2

Anecdotally, I tried these new one steps with a 2lb dumbbell in hand and (carefully) compared it to my old one step. The revised swing plane feels much more efficient. I'm not fighting my own body, and there's a lot less stress on my elbow, shoulder, and knees. The hips seem to be activating more smoothly rather than with the weird lag I had before. But I don't want to go any further if I'm missing key pieces!

Re: the EW, I can see what you mean now and feel the difference. When I start to rush, I get a weaker pendulum upswing and then a break in the kinematic chain, causing me to compensate by "yanking" the disc with my core and shoulder. This happens in my throws sometimes too.
 
In my "new one steps," I also see that my plant foot still really doesn't want to extend as the weight shifts. I could focus on an active extension. Maybe I still have my weight in the wrong spot or need a slightly bigger drive step?
 
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The first one looked better.

The second one your shoulder/arm swing is disconnected from your body. Make a backswing that pulls your front foot away from the target. Then if you step targetward, it should pull the swing targetward and the swing pulls the rear foot targetward and mirror back and forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m57s
 
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