Form Check/update

[Lumberjack504]

Hi all, wanted to post a form check here. I've been playing since March or so of this year. I posted a check about 4-5 months ago. Sine then I've been doing some fieldwork, watching tons of vids, reading here, checking out some SW drills, playing rounds etc etc and I've definitely progressed some in terms of distance and consistency. I'm getting Rocs to 275-300, and drivers 320-350. I have two different shots posted below - from the side was a Roadrunner that I yanked high and to the right, from behind the tee was an Orc that went about 315' on a hyzer.

What I notice:
- rear foot should be planted more closed/perpendicular to the target line
- stride could be shorter?
- on my better feeling/farther throws (350ish) I feel more loose and deeper into the backswing (turned further away from target)
- off-arm needs to get in tighter
- really need to figure out weightshift/balance on front leg

Other thoughts: I'd be pretty satisfied with a controllable, repeatable 350' within my first year of playing, but I know there's potential for more efficient distance with proper weight shift/brace.

Behind Tee


Side View

 

[sidewinder22]

You are stepping around yourself instead of moving/striding/gliding more laterally - stacked and centered in posture and balance. See how Nate's hips are stacked upright over ankles in athletic ready/quick position and moving in a tighter footbase/center targetward to the apex. Because Nate's rear hip is upright he can turn/load/leverage further back more effectively(butt wipe/hogan power move) and same thing on the front hip(one leg drill). Because you aren't bracing upright on your front hip your upper body/shoulder flies open and hook your swing to the right. You also need to keep turning your shoulder much further back (door frame drill).

 

[Lumberjack504]

Thanks as always SW for the reply and the diagrams too. It's funny you included Nate Doss there - last week in doubles, my partner mentioned that I was rounding a little bit in the backswing. The last few rounds I've played since then, including when I took these vids, I kind of emphasized a wider backswing a-la Doss to avoid rounding/over reaching. In doing so, and especially after reviewing the footage, I suspect that tweak may have shortened my backswing/turn/hip load (reaching out vs turning back). I'm glad you mentioned the door frame drill because I was planning on going back to that one in regards to the backswing.

I see what you mean about Nate's tighter footbase - I need to try to compact mine up a bit and stride laterally like you said.

Another thing I've noticed with the top throwers is how their rear foot is off of the ground pretty much as soon as the disc starts to come forward. Mine is way way later. Is this a result of a solid brace? Is it balance? Crush the can?

 

[sidewinder22]

Another thing I've noticed with the top throwers is how their rear foot is off of the ground pretty much as soon as the disc starts to come forward. Mine is way way later. Is this a result of a solid brace? Is it balance? Crush the can?

All the above. The pros are quicker off the rear foot because they are in better athletic ready position and posture to make "the move" forward where you are in a more immovable horsestance/seated position.

Re-posting from your previous thread, you are still spinning out the rear foot:

Try swinging your shoulder/arm/disc back more under you. Your reachback is a bit high. My disc is almost at my hip or navel at the top of my backswing and then I lower my center of gravity into the plant/weightshift so the swing is level(door frame pt 2).

Your rear foot is spinning out and late to the party, you have both heels on the ground at same time, that should not happen. The rear heel needs to be airborne as your front heel plants and your rear toes/instep should be driving the heel forward/targetward ahead of the toes so the foot everts(your rear heel spins away from the target).

 

[Lumberjack504]

Ok so it's been a little bit, but I've been doing a ton of reading and watching SW's videos on the brace and the weight shift.

I've obviously been throwing with all arm/upper body, and not shifting my weight properly. Ive been just pulling like all hell from the top of the backswing. I've noticed that the pros have their rear foot being deweighted or going airborne as the disc comes forward, so my question is: does the disc come forward as a result of the weight shift, not just an independent thing that happens "during" the weight shift? This may help me begin to understand things more clearly.


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[sidewinder22]

Weightshift leads the swing sequence, you need a braced front side to swing from.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Thanks. So once weightshift/brace happens, is it just a ripping through of the arm or do the hips clear, then torso pulls shoulder which then pulls loose arm? I'm kind of confused on the sequence and what I should be focusing on doing during the swing.


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[sidewinder22]

Weightshift and bracing are a dynamic event throughout the swing sequenced from the ground up. The whole arm and shoulder should be leveraged from your weight/counterweight like a trebuchet(see door frame drills).

 

[Lumberjack504]

Got out to the field today after a couple days of watching/doing door frame drills and butt wipe. Also been working on this little move that rhatton1 does around 5m in this video:



You can see me trying it before I throw these two shots, which felt decent and had decent flight to about 325' - average for me. It felt like the looser the arm was, the better things went... Still looks like the rear foot is spinning out. I was filming myself and wandered slightly out of frame, but hopefully y'all can see what's going on for the most part.



I think I'm starting to understand the concept of the brace but it will likely take a while for my neanderthal body to get it right... Here's my attempts at figuring it out

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like your rear foot is trying to drive your arm instead of your weight/momentum.

 

[Bradimous1]

Looks like your rear foot is trying to drive your arm instead of your weight/momentum.

So your back foot shouldn't drive the momentum shift? If not, that may be one of my biggest issues.

 

[sidewinder22]

So your back foot shouldn't drive the momentum shift? If not, that may be one of my biggest issues.

It does drive your momentum/weightshift/hips.

 

[Bradimous1]

It does drive your momentum/weightshift/hips.

Misread it, thank you

 

[iacas]

So your back foot shouldn't drive the momentum shift? If not, that may be one of my biggest issues.

Turns out your back foot contributes very little to the throw from the end of the reach-back to the release. It helps you keep your balance and acts as a counterweight, but it doesn't contribute much "thrust" to the throw.

It can't. Think about it. It's coming off the ground or on its tip-toes. If it was pushing you forward, it would itself be pushing against the ground. That's not happening. It's being pulled forward by the momentum you've built up in your run-up, and being pulled forward by your core, etc.

The trail leg in a golf swing similarly contributes very little to the downswing.

A few pictures of some guys you've probably seen before:
https://cl.ly/3y090x131P3T
https://cl.ly/0c3G2W2Q0o30
https://cl.ly/0m2I3o443t3Z

(And make no mistake: it's still important for it to work properly. But it doesn't really "drive" anything in the latter phases of the throw.)

 

[Lumberjack504]

Looks like your rear foot is trying to drive your arm instead of your weight/momentum.

So do you mean the rear foot should drive the weight/momentum, or the weight/momentum should drive the arm?

Edit: you answered this in another reply.


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[sidewinder22]

Think - ground up kinetic sequences. Rear foot and leg drive/leverage the body forward/targetward and your weight/momentum/arm along with it for the ride. Just think of your weight as the water inside a bottle or cup and the walls of the bottle/cup are your posture/skeleton holding the water/your organs/innards. When you accelerate a cup of water forward the water gets pushed back/loaded against the rear wall of the cup, this is the same thing you feel striding forward, more pressure/weight loads into the rear foot when you leverage and make a move and accelerate your center away from it. Most players incorrectly try to load up on the back foot by making a too backward move with the rear foot and/or leaning/tipping the spine outside posture of the rear foot/leg, instead of firmly bracing upright on the rear leg and leveraging your weight against/inside the back foot for a more powerful and controlled forward move of your center and weight.

Then when you plant and brace yourself on the front foot/leg, the cup stops/slows moving forward but the water/weight continues forward in a wave and pushes/crashes against front wall of the cup. Your water/weight can not be mostly forward until you have firmly planted/braced, and your water/weight can reverse or spill if you are not dynamically keeping it pinned forward. So you then extend the front leg clearing the front hip out right/back to redirect the water/weight to keep momentum flowing around and from crashing and spilling over/pulling you over, so then now momentum is in a smooth tight contained spiral upright against a firm braced dynamic posture(now think water staying put in the bottom of the bucket swinging around any direction, or swirling the water around the cup/bottle walls into a vortex) instead of a linear spill/crash/tip over a static wall, or opening up the front wall/leg letting it all fizzle out(not able to redirect or pin water/weight). The smoother you are and the better posture you maintain, the better you control your weight/momentum/inertial wave from splashing around and spilling out and wasting momentum. Be like water my friend, we are largely water and jello-ish substance except for the bones.

Part 1 of Hershyzer your rear foot/instep should still be able to push your butt/hips into the wall hard/with powerful substance/acceleration at the very end. After pushed up against the wall then you can put your front foot down naturally toward the left side of the tee/closed shorten stance(RHBH), then shift your hips slowly/deliberately back and forth against the wall just an inch or two with massive force and substance behind it into the wall leveraged from your rear leg/foot.

Part 2 of Hershyzer with hand or elbow against wall your rear foot is done driving anything and now acting to counter balance/weight the arm swing and keep you from spilling or spinning your momentum out.

Note that the Door Frame Drills and Hershyzer pt 1 should put you into the same position where you can leverage your hips/weight forward before you have yet planted any or most of your weight on the front foot(because the rear foot is still weighted/leveraging) and no forward arm swing movement has occurred. The Door Frame Drill actually pulls your arm and rotates shoulders/body further away closed from target as you move your hips forward into the plant. You should feel your whole body easily pivoting/turning inside your posture as you move forward. There should be little to no tension through your core and arm until your hips are nearly all the way forward as they can go. Think of a bow and arrow, but pushing the bow/hips forward to load tension while the arrow/disc remain in place, instead of drawing/pulling back the string/arm/arrow/disc away from the target to load tension.

 

[lucasgg]

Id save that essay for easy replication on other threads. Excellent explanation

 

[Lumberjack504]

First off thanks SW for the detailed explanation. I've definitely been thinking about the "throw" all wrong. I just thought bracing was some magic movement and voila your arm turned into a 450' disc slinger (gross simplification, but you get the gist).

So I've watched the hershyzer drill, and all of your drills many times and I've actually gotten out of my computer chair and done them. I haven't done the hershyzer though, at least not in a really long time.

After just a couple of those and trying it out in a simplified x step in my backyard, it feels like when leading with the hips or butt, the weight just catches or shifts more naturally on the plant foot as a reaction to the motion or body positions, and once I rotate, the rear leg wants to counterbalance and go behind more naturally instead of trying to force it or instead of spinning out. Feels smoother/more effortless/more balanced and like the arm just wants to release or follow everything as a result. I hope I'm on the right track with this, this may be just what I needed. It will take some practice to implement it with proper timing but this could be the next step to figuring all of this out.

 

[lucasgg]

First off thanks SW for the detailed explanation. I've definitely been thinking about the "throw" all wrong. I just thought bracing was some magic movement and voila your arm turned into a 450' disc slinger (gross simplification, but you get the gist).

So I've watched the hershyzer drill, and all of your drills many times and I've actually gotten out of my computer chair and done them. I haven't done the hershyzer though, at least not in a really long time.

After just a couple of those and trying it out in a simplified x step in my backyard, it feels like when leading with the hips or butt, the weight just catches or shifts more naturally on the plant foot as a reaction to the motion or body positions, and once I rotate, the rear leg wants to counterbalance and go behind more naturally instead of trying to force it or instead of spinning out. Feels smoother/more effortless/more balanced and like the arm just wants to release or follow everything as a result. I hope I'm on the right track with this, this may be just what I needed. It will take some practice to implement it with proper timing but this could be the next step to figuring all of this out.

The first step to learning is doing. You have the right idea of doing the drills along with the video.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Back with a quick update. Haven't been able to throw for about a week, but since then I've been re-evaluating how I approach the throw. I've been trying to focus on building the throw from the ground up and just letting the arm go along for the ride, so to speak. Focusing on, from the top of the backswing, pushing the rear foot to engage the hips, then torso, then shoulders which bring the arm through.

Threw some today, and it went alright for the most part, although I had a strong tailwind where I was throwing so it was kind of hard to gauge. A

This video has a practice swing and one drive. The practice swing I think looked a little better in terms of the rear foot, but it seems to spin out more on the actual drive. Also on the practice swing, looks like my momentum wants to take me to the right of the teepad a bit. Could this be due to balance more towards my heel vs my toes?

For reference, it was an orc that went about 350. I threw some drives that felt great and was hitting near my max distance with smoother/less effort than before.