Hilariously Bad Backhand Form, Please Advise

[ninjabq]

Went out and worked a little more with what I had "discovered" the last time about grip. While I know I'm not quite there yet, I feel a lot better now about my grip and feel like I was able to be much more consistent today. While doing some of the OLD throws (before the recording), I had one that 100% would've been the longest I've ever thrown it. Sadly it nailed a tree instead.

So back to our regularly scheduled programming. I recorded some OLD and some Elephant Walk drills, would love to get some feedback.





Here are a few actual throws. They were all bad both in the midst of it and the result, but posting for posterity I guess... I was trying to drive down onto my plant foot, but somehow it just caused me to go very far forward over my toes. Also I am still pulling the disc from the front and having to round to get out of the way of my torso.

 

[sidewinder22]

ewalk - there's no flow, your legs and arms are doing their own different things. The arm swing should pull your leg/s into the next step.

throw - similar to ewalk there's no flow. You pause at the top of backswing breaking momentum. Your spine is also extended/rigid instead of slightly flexed/relaxed. Rear arm is dragging behind your back. Grip is on leading edge of disc very early in throw.

There should be a little shift in OLD. Note how my rear heel came down to move the pressure around the rear foot and provide support/leverage. You want your shoulder to swing back and forth greater distance while maintaining dynamic balance. Also keep your left hand on rear thigh for leverage, your hand is going way around your back and dragging.

 

[ninjabq]

I'm back! Took a hiatus from filming (but not from disc golf), mainly due to lots of traveling and bad weather. Played plenty of rounds across my travels though, and (much to my partner's chagrin) spent lots of time watching videos and doing what I could to work on form in the living room.

I think I'm getting better at using my body weight and shifting it around to get the power into the arm. I still think I am disconnecting somewhere in between the hips and the arm part way through the swing, but hopefully it looks better.

First of all, some drills:

Here is me doing the one leg drill and knowing that it was definitely bad:


Here is me doing it later and I think it was better? There is a lot of dicking around here but I think it's relevant. Bouncing back and forth made it feel better. (Brutal thumbnail though)


Elephant walk drill again. Still having issues feeling the connection between lower body and upper body here. Looking at it side by side with the previous video from months ago though, I think it's miles better. Discs going in arbitrary directions might still be a grip issue.

This is a drill that feels a lot better in the living room with no disc, then in the field with a disc...


And here's some videos of some throws. Still not driving down hard enough on the heel and the timing is off with having the plant leg drive the beginning of the arm swing. Need to work more on landing in that near-sitting position with the shift from behind.


(more dicking around at the beginning of this video, but again hopefully relevantly so)


Is there any alternative method to doing the crush the can without having an endless supply of cans? We very rarely drink out of cans in our household!

Results-wise, it feels like the discs are flying straighter, lower, and in a more consistent direction. I am getting more distance but not much (maybe 20-40 feet on average), but with less effort. Haven't exactly measured it yet but still pretty sure I'm not getting anywhere near 300 feet.

Let me know if I'm moving in the right direction, or completely in the wrong one!

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are really trying to fire your hips into rotation and dragging the rest behind. Need to relax the hips into rotation and bring elbows forward.

Bow & Arrow and Door Frame Drills should help you feel your hips striding forward while the shoulders get pulled/loaded back behind them. You should feel like you can transition/shift to the front foot maintaining that door frame position from rear foot after letting go of door frame and shifting to front foot.

Swivel Stairs is alternative to Crush the Can, don't really need the can to practice the shift from behind.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[ninjabq]

Okay, I think I am finally starting to understand the difference between what I am doing with respect to firing the hips, and the lateral shift forcing the hips to rotate. That being said, I want to ask some questions to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

1. Is the lateral shift as in what Paige Pierce explain in this video the same shift as the shift from behind as in hershyzer/swivel stairs/etc?

2. In the OLD what is driving the lateral shift to force the location? Presumably the rear foot is only being used for balance so we aren't driving off of the inside of the rear foot in OLD.

3. For the "loading the bow and arrow", I played around with that and worked on the door frame drill, and I definitely understand the part that I wasn't getting. To be clear though, the "stretch" or "slingshot" feeling that relates to this, that is caused by the plant foot coming down and pulling the shoulders back, but does this happen before the lateral shift or after the lateral shift? (Seems like it might be different between standstill and full x-step?)

4. To bounce off the last question, does the lateral shift (like explained in the Paige Pierce video) happen into the plant as part of the shift from behind, or does it happen after the plant?

I think I probably know the answers to these already but would love for some feedback to make sure I've got it straight. In my head it seems like the explanations lead to:

1. backswing, load weight over rear foot
2. lateral shift (from behind, driven from interior of the rear foot) into bow and arrow, into plant
3. almost immediately the plant leg is braced/posted and the lateral forces caused by the shift/can crush are halted at the posted leg
4. causing the rear hip to swing around until it no longer can
5. causing the upper body to swing around until it no longer can (which is itself further braced by utilizing the side bend)
5. finally causing the arm to swing out and the disc to be forcibly released
6. causing the arm to follow through up and around the right shoulder, bringing the rest of the body with it

However trying to do this feels pretty awkward for me, and I have a hard time translating the lateral forces from the shift into the braced leg. Like it feels to me like either I'm just stopping at being braced and my left hip doesn't come around, or I'm still spinning out my hips like in the previous video. So I figure either my idea of what is supposed to be happening is wrong, or I'm still not actually doing what I think I'm doing.

 

[ninjabq]

One more thing - fair to say that the hips should be neutral, if not closed, to the target by the time the disc is ejected?

 

[Brychanus]

Okay, I think I am finally starting to understand the difference between what I am doing with respect to firing the hips, and the lateral shift forcing the hips to rotate. That being said, I want to ask some questions to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

1. Is the lateral shift as in what Paige Pierce explain in this video the same shift as the shift from behind as in hershyzer/swivel stairs/etc?

2. In the OLD what is driving the lateral shift to force the location? Presumably the rear foot is only being used for balance so we aren't driving off of the inside of the rear foot in OLD.

3. For the "loading the bow and arrow", I played around with that and worked on the door frame drill, and I definitely understand the part that I wasn't getting. To be clear though, the "stretch" or "slingshot" feeling that relates to this, that is caused by the plant foot coming down and pulling the shoulders back, but does this happen before the lateral shift or after the lateral shift? (Seems like it might be different between standstill and full x-step?)

4. To bounce off the last question, does the lateral shift (like explained in the Paige Pierce video) happen into the plant as part of the shift from behind, or does it happen after the plant?

A lot of thinking here, but I'll try to focus on cutting through to a couple things to notice responding to your 4 questions.

1. Yes.

2. I'll let SW answer, but I hope it's allowing some pressure to the rear foot before shifting & landing in the plant.

3. I'd show the drill(s) because feel vs. real. If I understand your question, notice in Loading the bow or Door frame that your body is ideally turning back/away from target as you are shifting forward.

4. You need to shift to land in the plant (from "behind you").

I think I probably know the answers to these already but would love for some feedback to make sure I've got it straight. In my head it seems like the explanations lead to:

1. backswing, load weight over rear foot
2. lateral shift (from behind, driven from interior of the rear foot) into bow and arrow, into plant
3. almost immediately the plant leg is braced/posted and the lateral forces caused by the shift/can crush are halted at the posted leg
4. causing the rear hip to swing around until it no longer can
5. causing the upper body to swing around until it no longer can (which is itself further braced by utilizing the side bend)
5. finally causing the arm to swing out and the disc to be forcibly released
6. causing the arm to follow through up and around the right shoulder, bringing the rest of the body with it

However trying to do this feels pretty awkward for me, and I have a hard time translating the lateral forces from the shift into the braced leg. Like it feels to me like either I'm just stopping at being braced and my left hip doesn't come around, or I'm still spinning out my hips like in the previous video.

This is maybe one way to summarize it, though in 4,5,5, and 6 there be careful with things that indicate parts of the body are "stopping". The swing is still continuous on a tilted axis even though it looks like aspects of the body are "stopping" their movement relative to some camera angles. E.g., if you look at young Paul vs. old Paul, the fundamentals are the same, but you would conclude different things are stopping at different points if you only looked at one angle.

So I figure either my idea of what is supposed to be happening is wrong, or I'm still not actually doing what I think I'm doing.

 

[ninjabq]

Idk if "stopping" is really even the exact right terminology for what I'm thinking, but I'm basing that thought process off of this video that was posted around here somewhere

in the dynamic movement I would imagine it looks/feels a lot less like actual "stopping" but maybe in slow motion it works as a mental cue

 

[Brychanus]

Idk if "stopping" is really even the exact right terminology for what I'm thinking, but I'm basing that thought process off of this video that was posted around here somewhere

in the dynamic movement I would imagine it looks/feels a lot less like actual "stopping" but maybe in slow motion it works as a mental cue

Yes, just advising caution with certain swing thoughts in advance! You want to learn how to move, which involves stopping forward momentum and converting it into the swing force. IMO that part does feel like an abrupt shift or stop of targetward momentum, but it is very much a smooth, continuous motion. I just thought to mention it because usually people who consciously try to "stop" movement end up with weird hitches in their movement.

 

[sidewinder22]

Okay, I think I am finally starting to understand the difference between what I am doing with respect to firing the hips, and the lateral shift forcing the hips to rotate. That being said, I want to ask some questions to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

1. Is the lateral shift as in what Paige Pierce explain in this video the same shift as the shift from behind as in hershyzer/swivel stairs/etc?

2. In the OLD what is driving the lateral shift to force the location? Presumably the rear foot is only being used for balance so we aren't driving off of the inside of the rear foot in OLD.

3. For the "loading the bow and arrow", I played around with that and worked on the door frame drill, and I definitely understand the part that I wasn't getting. To be clear though, the "stretch" or "slingshot" feeling that relates to this, that is caused by the plant foot coming down and pulling the shoulders back, but does this happen before the lateral shift or after the lateral shift? (Seems like it might be different between standstill and full x-step?)

4. To bounce off the last question, does the lateral shift (like explained in the Paige Pierce video) happen into the plant as part of the shift from behind, or does it happen after the plant?

I think I probably know the answers to these already but would love for some feedback to make sure I've got it straight. In my head it seems like the explanations lead to:

1. backswing, load weight over rear foot
2. lateral shift (from behind, driven from interior of the rear foot) into bow and arrow, into plant
3. almost immediately the plant leg is braced/posted and the lateral forces caused by the shift/can crush are halted at the posted leg
4. causing the rear hip to swing around until it no longer can
5. causing the upper body to swing around until it no longer can (which is itself further braced by utilizing the side bend)
5. finally causing the arm to swing out and the disc to be forcibly released
6. causing the arm to follow through up and around the right shoulder, bringing the rest of the body with it

However trying to do this feels pretty awkward for me, and I have a hard time translating the lateral forces from the shift into the braced leg. Like it feels to me like either I'm just stopping at being braced and my left hip doesn't come around, or I'm still spinning out my hips like in the previous video. So I figure either my idea of what is supposed to be happening is wrong, or I'm still not actually doing what I think I'm doing.

1. basically

2. Rear foot balance and leverage.

3. The unwinding begins when the front heel(crush can) starts pulling the front hip which then pulls the shoulder.

4. Before the plant. There should be no backside push or drive after you plant.

Figure 8 motion will probably help.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

 

[ninjabq]

Two things:

1. It feels like I must be doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe something with grip. But I just find it crazy that I'm out here just trying to break 250 or even be able to consistently get over 200 when it seems like everyone else's problems around here are about getting over 300, 350, 400. I've been working at it fairly regularly and am constantly making changes over the course of the last 4 or 5 months, and I wouldn't say my distance has appreciable increased by more than 25 feet on average.

As I mentioned at the opening of the thread, I have 0 athletic history so I'm sure that somehow plays a role, but that isn't meaningfully useful info at this point. I'm kinda small but I wouldn't say I'm crazy weak or anything like that, I have been lifting weights consistently for a couple of years now and on/off for a while before that.

My buddies I play with, who mostly do runs ups with their entire bodies facing the basket and then backswing the disc behind their head before strong-arming it at the basket, regularly get the same or more distance than me, and they don't do anything beyond playing 18 holes every week or two.

I do think my consistency of hitting straight lines has improved a lot, but I really wish I could figure out what is the thing holding me back from getting over 200 regularly...

Any tips for things I could video next time I'm out that might help figure out the issue?

One thing I do know is that I often subconsciously "release" the disc early rather than let it rip out of my hands, which is something I'm working on... I spent the first few months with so many rounding-related griplocks that I have locked in a fear of it that I'm sure is driving that issue.

2. What is the feeling supposed to be in the forearm/elbow/tricep as the forearm extends out of the power pocket? I have noticed that during most throws, as well as even just throwing straight from the power pocket e.g. the Beto drill, that the action of my forearm opening causes my elbow to jarringly lock out (kind of like when you throw a punch at the air and don't make contact with anything). Is this wrong? If I push my shoulders forward and then push everything away from my body as I'm uncoiling that arm, it feels more like the forearm "glides" out smoothly instead of the jarring feeling, but doing so feels pretty uncomfortable (in that I really have to push everything forward from that side) so I am not sure I would even be able to actually do that in a full throw.

 

[bryantlikes]

2. What is the feeling supposed to be in the forearm/elbow/tricep as the forearm extends out of the power pocket? I have noticed that during most throws, as well as even just throwing straight from the power pocket e.g. the Beto drill, that the action of my forearm opening causes my elbow to jarringly lock out (kind of like when you throw a punch at the air and don't make contact with anything). Is this wrong? If I push my shoulders forward and then push everything away from my body as I'm uncoiling that arm, it feels more like the forearm "glides" out smoothly instead of the jarring feeling, but doing so feels pretty uncomfortable (in that I really have to push everything forward from that side) so I am not sure I would even be able to actually do that in a full throw.

Not sure I can fully grasp what you're doing without a video, but maybe watch these oldy-but-goody (I think) videos. Maybe they will help you conceptualize it.

 

[Brychanus]

Always video.

I also like this discussion by Clement on role of the arms.



Ignore some of how I move here in the throw at the beginning, but this discussion is when I first started understanding it relative to other moves I'd learned before:
https://youtu.be/R_ZJxZUZkLI?t=68


There's nothing new under the sun. SW talked about this one way or another in various places, including hammers and punches.




The reason your arm shouldn't take the brunt of it is because the weight of your arm swinging into follow through should be swinging you through deweighting the front leg and diffusing the momentum rather than jerking at the shoulder/elbow.

 

[ninjabq]

Not sure I can fully grasp what you're doing without a video, but maybe watch these oldy-but-goody (I think) videos. Maybe they will help you conceptualize it.

Thanks, I've seen a couple of these already but I'll rewatch them again and all of Brychanus's videos to see if I gain some new insight. I took some quick videos but I have no idea if they provide any further insight into what I'm feeling:

This way is the more "lateral/linear" way, where it feels like the point at which my forearm comes in line with my tricep it "yoinks" the tricep (again kinda like if you forcefully straight your arm out and don't hit anything in the process)

This way is more of like my shoulder and forearm coming forward and then out. It feels a little more "arm"y (especially doing it standing still like this), but also more "glidey". It also feels like it pulls me around more powerfully after the would-be "release point" (haven't actually tried while throwing a disc very hard, will tomorrow)

(this could all be leading down a hole to nothing...)

 

[bryantlikes]

I took some quick videos but I have no idea if they provide any further insight into what I'm feeling

Sorry but it is very hard to tell what is going on if you're not holding anything. I'd suggest doing the drills from the videos, so ether a disc or a bottle. Feel it rip out of your hand if you do it correctly.

I wouldn't worry so much about the arm, when you do it correctly you won't feel anything except the disc. That is my $.02.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[timothy42b]

Thanks, I've seen a couple of these already but I'll rewatch them again and all of Brychanus's videos to see if I gain some new insight. I took some quick videos but I have no idea if they provide any further insight into what I'm feeling:

This way is the more "lateral/linear" way, where it feels like the point at which my forearm comes in line with my tricep it "yoinks" the tricep (again kinda like if you forcefully straight your arm out and don't hit anything in the process)

This way is more of like my shoulder and forearm coming forward and then out. It feels a little more "arm"y (especially doing it standing still like this), but also more "glidey". It also feels like it pulls me around more powerfully after the would-be "release point" (haven't actually tried while throwing a disc very hard, will tomorrow)

(this could all be leading down a hole to nothing...)

I'm seeing some of myself in this thread, I've been working quite a while with minimal progress, so don't take any analysis from me.! I do think I'm improving some of my worst faults (shoulder plane changing and leading with head instead of butt).

Here's what I noticed in your videos: your throwing shoulder is higher than your off arm shoulder at all times. I'm trying to do the opposite (and always surprised when the video says I didn't do what I'm sure I did.) YMMV.

 

[ninjabq]

Okay, I've watched this video a couple times before but this time I actually understood it, so thanks for linking it again! I'm glad I posted my ramblings because even though it barely made sense, I think it got me to the right answer.

At some point in my research I had gotten it in my head that the upper arm stays effectively immobile at a 90 degree angle from the torso. I have been flinging out my forearm from the upper arm without flinging my upper arm from the shoulder, meaning I basically have been losing all of the energy that came before that.

I went out and first did the little drill he has in this video, and the first demonstration he has where the disc doesn't fly out because of not leveraging the upper arm, is exactly how I've been throwing (and what was causing the "yoink" on the tricep I described). So I worked on getting the feel of letting the upper arm be more loose and swing around, and was able to feel a much smoother action on the arm (the "gliding" I described) and the disc eject despite me squeezing it hard. I practiced it with some Beato drill throws and some one leg drill and ended up with some solid throws (and some terrible ones) before running out of time.

Will definitely be focusing on this specific issue for a little while now because I think it's a big thing holding me back. Thanks as always for everyone's input!

 

[bryantlikes]

Okay, I've watched this video a couple times before but this time I actually understood it, so thanks for linking it again!

I wouldn't be able to count the number of times I've watched some of these videos and saw things that I completely missed the first time (or times).

 

[ninjabq]

Blog update: Went out this morning for an hour and worked on Beato drill (trying to lock in that feeling of incorporating upper arm into the throw and override previous issue), figure 8 standstill, and one leg drill, then just some drives.

Idk how I got into what I was doing before with locking up the upper arm, but I've realized that I basically was turning my entire body up to the elbow into the handle of the whip, which obviously is extremely limiting.

Two notes from today:
1. Feel vs real is.... real. I was going back and forth between (a.) trying to keep my left hand tight to my left thigh, and (b.) trying to raise my left hand with the backswing and then do a pseudo-swim move. In either case, the video showed that no matter what, I was mostly just flailing the arm around just like all my other throws, even though it felt like I was trying really hard to keep it under control. Just another thing I need to be very conscious about until it's locked in.

2. One thing that eluded me before was the idea of pushing hard with the thumb and really getting a squeeze on the disc. With the bad arm action before, it was impossible to do this and have the disc eject, so I had subconsciously gotten used to releasing early by loosening my hand, because of course I would've griplocked everything otherwise. With the improved arm action, I can really squeeze the disc toward the end of the throw and have the disc eject (it's still off line a lot but definitely improved), and the improved flight and power is tangible.
- 2. a. I also have a much better understanding/feeling on how people can throw 300 feet with only their arm this way. Definitely something I have to keep in mind.
- 2. b. With this improved arm action/ability properly grip and squeeze, I hit a personal best of 256 feet with a Valkyrie today as my final throw of the day (sadly not recorded). Obviously still a far mark from where I want to be, but the whole throw felt super smooth and as soon as it left my hand I knew it was gonna be a good one.