Hilariously Bad Backhand Form, Please Advise

[ninjabq]

Finally I am alive again enough for drills.

I've been playing around with "baseball swings" lately because I feel like I can feel brace/get the gravity-assisted swing/resisting the ground better. But maybe I'm totally off base here. Disclaimer: I've never played baseball beyond extremely casual pickup softball.



Double dragon. I know it's bad. Felt bad. Looked bad.


Tried some "bouncing around" Skater-y bull-ride-y throws. I felt like these were okay but too upright and sky high.


Still can't get the drills to show up in my throw. Need to reeeeally slow it down (common theme)


On the bright side my putting within 20 feet has gotten a lot better since getting the practice basket.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some common themes in those vids.

1. You really like open up to target instead of staying closed.

2. In your skater one, you are only shifting your hips without your feet moving or any real force shift in your feet/ground. Double Crush the Can.

3. In your standstill, your rear foot is spinning out in the backswing and forward swing. Looks you are trying to force your rear foot angle too inward and has to spin out. Also looks like you are forcing yourself to stay too on your rear toes. I'd recommend walking backwards(reverse elephant walk) into the backswing, and turning your rear foot further back away to start.

Elephant Walk Drill

Drill to help make weightshift and swinging as easy as walking. This drill really helps on uphill tees or lies like this hole where walking targetward makes it hard to get forward balanced on front leg. If you are walking sideways along with the hill then it is easier to shift forward and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[ninjabq]

1. You really like open up to target instead of staying closed.

Yeah this has been a consistent issue. I tried doing some closed shoulder drills just to hone in on this. Even doing the drill I open my shoulder a lot. I think I got better toward the end of this session, mainly by initiating a little more with the posted leg in the forward-frontish direction. But I also felt less "snap" doing that, so idk.

2. In your skater one, you are only shifting your hips without your feet moving or any real force shift in your feet/ground. Double Crush the Can.

I'll have to get to crushing the can soon, will collect some props.

3. In your standstill, your rear foot is spinning out in the backswing and forward swing. Looks you are trying to force your rear foot angle too inward and has to spin out. Also looks like you are forcing yourself to stay too on your rear toes. I'd recommend walking backwards(reverse elephant walk) into the backswing, and turning your rear foot further back away to start.

I can definitely feel what you're saying with the "trying to force the rear foot angle inward". Here I tried some elephant walk - wish I had remembered to bring a hammer to swing that first.



And here I tried to do reverse elephant walk throw. I could definitely feel how it was better when I let my rear foot stay turned back a little bit instead of bringing it inward (which is the default at this point - I've trained it into muscle memory I suppose).



It's interesting how my shadow swings feel more pendulum-y and vertical, but when I actually throw I always end up flattening it out.

 

[Brychanus]

vids appear private to me

 

[ninjabq]

Oops - should be viewable now, thanks for the catch.

 

[Brychanus]

I think this is consistent with Sidewinder's observation that you don't have any real force shift in your feet or the ground.

As you keep working on Elephant walk drill:

1. Be more patient swinging each way, focusing on making the swing as long, slow, and smooth as possible. Make your arm feel as heavy as possible. Wait until your arm stretches you all the way out at the peak of the backswing and the swing before you swing back the other way.

2. Get more planted and heavier into the ground. Elephant walk. Feel the mass of your body towing your arm in each direction. Watch SW do it again in his video - see how he even lets his body sink or "sit" a little into the move going each way? That's so he can "lead with the mAss". Your feet and legs don't like to get fully grounded, so the drill can help you exaggerate it to the extreme in the context of a normal forward walk.

 

[sidewinder22]

The reverse ewalk looked the best. On normal ewalk you are barely turning your shoulders and hugging yourself.

 

[ninjabq]

For some reason my e walk feels worse the more strides I take.




Tried to get a some reverse elephant walk action in all of these throws. Was really trying to focus on planting into the back swing, then the rear instep eversion to drop my butt into the plant at the same time/opposite direction as my backswing. Felt like I started to get some success with the hammer, but still swinging around early in the disc throw.

 

[ninjabq]

Some new bull riding (disclaimer - I know the sandals are less than ideal but they're convenient, and if I can't use them for these drills I probably shouldn't be using them for backpacking either and yet here we are....)

I noticed from the side view, esp with the Bucket, that I can start off with my nose over my toes but as I progress through the drill I come forward a bit so I'm too far over my toes. Part of that could be explained by camera illusion and not being exactly 90 degrees to the camera but there is still some actual postural change occurring.




For a change in pace, here's my first putting diary entry:

Got the basket 4 weeks ago. Have definitely thrown well over 1k putts in that time. I marked off every 5 feet from 10 to 35.

My routine is two putts at a time like in the videos. I start by just doing it til I drill 10 straight from 10 feet, 10 straight from 15 feet, etc. Usually have a tough time doing 10 straight from 20 so I eventually give up and just start tossing a few from each of the subsequent distances.

Recently though I have been starting from 30 and tossing a few first since I find that helps me dial in "optimal" form, which leads me into my next part...

The best part of having the basket and being able to putt so much is being able to try different stuff out constantly. I'm not settled on a form yet. I eventually landed on a pitch-y straddle putt that was very consistent from 20 or less. But when it was off, it was always high, and from 25+ I had a hard time getting power on it with a clean release. I tried docking my wrist and slinging it a little more to add spin but that resulted in way less consistency.

So now I'm back to this stagger putt. Ultimate goal is for a putt where the form is nearly identical from 35 as it is from 15, which I didn't feel I could ever reach with the straddle.

I'd describe each component as such: front foot pointed directly toward basket; rear foot perpendicular to front foot, heel almost directly behind, index finger wrapped around the edge of the rim (this is a major change I found early on increased my clean release consistency a lot, but at the cost of some power/wrist action), rest of the fingers firm on the bottom of the flight plate; drop on to back foot; bring putter to waist/inside left thigh; push back to the right with rear foot; extend and pop.

I just started doing this a few days ago so it's definitely inconsistent and not super clean. But I wanted to get input on if there's any fundamental flaws that I need to fix before I toss 10k putts this way.

One thought I had is that having my front foot pointed directly toward the basket is too rigid and throws my line off. But on the other hand having it turned feels like I'll never have it at the same angle every time.




Thanks as always!

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah Ewalk steps look pretty uncomfortable to me. I think you get destabilized by the swing rather than grounding it.

Walk straight at us like you would normally swinging each way. Very casually to remind your body what walking is like.

Then get slightly more athletic stance. Walk forward again. You hopefully notice your body and legs able to get more connected with the ground:


Now do Ewalk and really feel your body sink into/pump the earth as you walk each way. Watch how sidewinder appears to briefly "sit" toward the earth into each step. He's using the whole mass of his body to lead the arm down with gravity, gets very grounded, and lets the disc commit all the way thru.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your feet are spinning out of over the place in all of those drills/throws. Slow down and relax.

Your knees are bending too much over toward toes with shoulders behind knees. Your shoulders should hang more forward over your knees and toes, so your knees are back out of the way for the swing back and forth. Note how my hamstrings are more stretched and posture is more relaxed setting up. You don't want to stick your butt out to touch the wall in buttwipe, but you need to shift your center of gravity back toward your heels to hit the wall with your butt.

Lose the stick and bucket and swing the hammer or disc or just arm effortlessly pivoting back and forth in 2 step dingle arm. Tap your tippy toes of the trailing foot on the ground back and forth while your knees touch each other.

 

[ninjabq]

151 posts later and we're down to learning how to walk and pace back and forth haha. If I ever manage to huck a disc 400 feet you are all free to make me the "anti athletic" poster child.

Walk straight at us like you would normally swinging each way. Very casually to remind your body what walking is like.

Then get slightly more athletic stance. Walk forward again. You hopefully notice your body and legs able to get more connected with the ground:

Now do Ewalk and really feel your body sink into/pump the earth as you walk each way.

Did exactly this a few times with the hammer. These videos are after doing it a few times. First with heavier hammer, second with lighter hammer, third with disc. All of them are walk -> athletic walk -> e walk x2.

Earlier SW mentioned for a previous e-walk video that I was barely turning my shoulders - I feel like the more I try to do that, the more the walk becomes awkward and I lose the flow...

Lose the stick and bucket and swing the hammer or disc or just arm effortlessly pivoting back and forth in 2 step dingle arm. Tap your tippy toes of the trailing foot on the ground back and forth while your knees touch each other.

Think nose is still a little too far over toes here.

 

[Naenae]

I totally disbelieve that there is one form that should be emulated by all, and I'm saddened by how much time some folk invest trying to get there. Throw frisbee. Have fun. Repeat.

 

[Brychanus]

Don't really disagree with Naenae, there's wisdom in there.

Hope you're finding it fun Ninja.

The trick to any hammer drill is basically to let it initially threaten to pull you off balance if necessary, then force your feet and legs to get you more grounded while your balance adapts swinging back and forth. It's a brain training trick, really. You would need to let yourself initially get off balance to make your brain find the new balance.

You can get nose more over toes in the skater hammer swing from Turbo Encabulator, yes. Same idea there, just let the hammer carry you both ways, letting your shoulders follow the hammer into the backswing, and then lead the hammer into the swing. It'll ideally pull you into athletic side bend on its own/recruit your core. The trick at first is still just always allowing the hammer to help move you, rather than you just moving the hammer.

Btw if you want a "cheat sheet" or reframe of sorts (ha), learning to throw out of the door frame drill is a big percentage of sources of power. I still throw my power standstills out of basically the same move as that drill. Works great. I've worked to improve parts of it significantly over time with the Dingle Arm drills but all the basics were there shortly after I learned it. Clint Easterly basically throws out of a posturally "too flat" door frame drill and throws massive standstills even though he lacks some of the tilted balance (he is very athletic and strong/coordinated to be sure, but you get the idea). Just using that as a case in point for strategic differences in growth.

 

[ninjabq]

I totally disbelieve that there is one form that should be emulated by all, and I'm saddened by how much time some folk invest trying to get there. Throw frisbee. Have fun. Repeat.

I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't enjoy it!

Worth noting I'm not, like, blindly following this. Firstly I consume a lot of coaching content, and work on others' stuff as well. I have gained a lot of insight from Overthrow, DG Spin Doctor, Trebuchet, and plenty of other videos. I also just consume a lot of DG content in general.

Second, I put a lot of thought into how I want to learn to throw and I believe the "ultimate" me-throw would inevitably trend toward the SW/Brychanus "school" of thought anyway. I am short and slightly stocky with short levers, bad posture, and no innate athleticism or flexibility. Using a lot of verticality/gravity and learning to use my body properly for the athletic move seems like the best way for me to accomplish my goals, and I think it can pay dividends outside of disc golf as well.

Lastly, I have been definitely trying to dial back on how seriously I take rounds, since I still suck anyway. My last few rounds I took nothing but one driver and two putters and tried very hard not to think about form or drills, and I've been having a lot more fun recently.

The trick at first is still just always allowing the hammer to help move you, rather than you just moving the hammer.

I definitely feel this the most with the first, normal e-walk than with any of the subsequent walks, especially with the heavy hammer of course.

Btw if you want a "cheat sheet" or reframe of sorts (ha), learning to throw out of the door frame drill is a big percentage of sources of power. I still throw my power standstills out of basically the same move as that drill. Works great. I've worked to improve parts of it significantly over time with the Dingle Arm drills but all the basics were there shortly after I learned it. Clint Easterly basically throws out of a posturally "too flat" door frame drill and throws massive standstills even though he lacks some of the tilted balance (he is very athletic and strong/coordinated to be sure, but you get the idea). Just using that as a case in point for strategic differences in growth.

I've watched Clint's videos and can definitely see what you're saying about how his standstill maps to the door frame drill. I still play around with the door frame drill sometimes, but not very seriously - I will definitely have to revisit that one.

 

[Brychanus]

I definitely feel this the most with the first, normal e-walk than with any of the subsequent walks, especially with the heavy hammer of course.

Try it next letting the hammer swing you all the way back like this into the backswing each time. Right now you aren't letting your shoulders move very much. If you saw Sidewinder's Elephant Walk from head on his shoulder would be coming much further back like in door frame drill. You'll feel off balance at first - let that happen.

 

[ninjabq]

Taking a detour here for a sec.

Something I have always struggled to understand is exactly how much I am supposed to be driving off the plant leg to clear the hip. I feel like it's a spectrum between "it just happens because gravity" to "make the ground your *****", but maybe not? And does the rotation of the upper body happen because your lower body/plant leg/plant side/whatever *stops*, or because it actively drives the plant hip into clearing which then leads to the rest...?

I haven't been actively driving (to be fair it's hard when I'm not even really getting planted before the throw), but OT and Nick Krush's latest videos have me revisiting this. Here's a video of me trying to get into the rhythm of the plant leg drive hip clear whatever, with a throw at the end. It looks awkward and the arm action is bad/chicken wing. But let's just focus on the lower body. Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Not sure if it's clear from the video but I am definitely driving the front hip back with the plant leg, not spinning the hips around.

I will say that doing it this way feels like there is a smoother connection through the chain from foot to arm but I could just be fooling myself.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm going to try and "undercomplicate" the brace for you. I'm going to say the same thing about 10 different ways to see if any of them "stick."

I have seen people come through here and try to break down the brace into tiny little bits and get confused and disappear. Let me know if this helps/makes sense.

Too many people who try to break it down into sequential pieces often just cause (1) hitches and jerks and (2) very frequently and related to those, collapse somewhere in the brace. I'm not talking about the value of isolating mechanics when they are wrong; I'm talking about training how leg muscles work as a unit in the brace.

What you need to know about things like crush the can and shift drills that people misunderstand is that a "prerequisite" is "athletic legs."
I like to call the whole action of the legs and brace "athletic resistance" now. If you jump up and down and resist the leg bending/collapsing, it is kinetically a kind of brace. That will transmit force much faster and stop your body mass moving too forward more reliably than collapsing anywhere in your leg.

If you run a little bit sideways and try to stop your forward momentum on a dime without letting your leg bend/collapse at impact, it is kinetically a kind of brace. If you did the same move and planted on a cloth on a hardwood floor (please only do this if you are willing to fall down lmao), you should go scooting sideways.

classic:

If you run sideways and then brace sideways with some body tilt like a skiier or seabas22 Kick the Can and then "jump back away" straight out of the move after resisting your leg bend, you just applied an overcooked brace (it's fun!).

Athletic resistance means that as soon as your leg is starting to interact with the ground, it is resisting it as a unit. It is briefly the sturdiest thing your body has ever done. Its goal is to transmit force up the chain.

If you come in with "good enough" posture and "good enough" balance you will start to get force transmission up the chain.

There are controversies going around about the exact role and sequence of the action through the hips and I pay attention to those a lot more now myself. One model (like you may have seen Kuoksa talk about recently) is the "stop model." That seems to be becoming popular in Europe. But you need to understand that the "stop" is about preventing more forward movement of the body. If it does that, and you are in good athletic movement and posture, you have a better chance of getting power into the disc and lesser chance of blowing out joints as the follow through carries the action forward safely.

A constraint on the upper bound of the function of a plant and brace and its safety under that notion is peak leg strength. Don't worry about that too much for now, but on the other hand "never skip leg day."

 

[ninjabq]

I think this might be too much words/thinking for what I need right now, but I will try to parse it and put it on context before moving on to asking what I think I need in this moment.

What you need to know about things like crush the can and shift drills that people misunderstand is that a "prerequisite" is "athletic legs."

Does this mean that if one does have "athletic legs", then one does not need to think about bracing because it "just happens" as I mentioned on one side of the spectrum? And if one does not have "athletic legs", then either one "cannot" brace or one would need to force it (and potentially open themselves up to jerky movement/injury) or somewhere in between those two things?

I like to call the whole action of the legs and brace "athletic resistance" now. If you jump up and down and resist the leg bending/collapsing, it is kinetically a kind of brace. That will transmit force much faster and stop your body mass moving too forward more reliably than collapsing anywhere in your leg.

If you run a little bit sideways and try to stop your forward momentum on a dime without letting your leg bend/collapse at impact, it is kinetically a kind of brace. If you did the same move and planted on a cloth on a hardwood floor (please only do this if you are willing to fall down lmao), you should go scooting sideways.

If you run sideways and then brace sideways with some body tilt like a skiier or seabas22 Kick the Can and then "jump back away" straight out of the move after resisting your leg bend, you just applied an overcooked brace (it's fun!).

(This does not require comment but FWIW I've been following your training plan at the gym - it's been fun! And doing lots of jumping back and forth and up and down and "teaching" my brain that my ankles/knees can handle it.)

I have seen people come through here and try to break down the brace into tiny little bits and get confused and disappear. Let me know if this helps/makes sense.

In my mind I was trying to get closer to the full sequence of movement here, at least in a "door frame drill throw" type of way, to try to avoid over-isolating. But if it doesn't seem like that was the case, then mission not accomplished.

Moving forward to "what I need now" is, I think, just as straightforward as possible - is what I'm doing in the video/what I described myself doing in the video, a thought/action that I should continue with, or should I discard it because it's not helpful/dangerous/etc? Is it closer or further from where I need to be headed than before? (I find it hard to believe it could be further because 3 posts ago I had a video where I'm clearly throwing off of my back foot/front toes with no brace at all - but I'm not the expert here.)

(And maybe that's not what I need now - feel free to let me know if you think that's the case.)

 

[sidewinder22]

You are falling backward in the finish, so you are never dynamically balanced up on your hip. Your front hip actually moves further away from target instead of continuing forward to finish standing/pivoting on it. The buttwipe should be more upward with the hip joint while the butt cheek turns/whips back away, you are way overdoing the front hip back(it's more about the butt cheek than hip).