How many penalty strokes do we give him?

[Dan Ensor]

Playing the shot from where he played it is a misplay and he should be taking his stroke and playing from the last correct lie (teebox).

If it's a misplay, the "last correct lie" is where his first drive came to rest.

 

[Picked_Up]

If it's a misplay, the "last correct lie" is where his first drive came to rest.

That's why I asked for clarification at the very least... we now have the rules there for everyones viewing pleasure, rather than just speculation.

 

[sidewinder22]

I was just watching an old usdgc vid with a similar scenario. The TD declared the subsequent throws as provisionals after they discovered the original throws were IB, although the group thought the two throws went OB. I'd lean toward this ruling. :\

 

[Smigles]

Really should be A imo.

The groups usually can see the difference between somebody really thinking he is OB and somebody who just wants to get in more practice shots. If you cant prove to him that he knew he was in, then IMO it should be a "assumed provisional".

But that's certainly not how it is written in the rules.

 

[geoblime]

Once a disc is declared to "have gone O.B." (after a three minute search with no luck) and a subsequent throw made from last place in bounds(or previous lie), that should be it regardless if the disc is found in bounds. One stroke and move on.

 

[Josh.arment]

I would hope for the sake of the sportsmanship I would hope that everyone would not be a dick when they all said that the first throw was OB.

 

[JC17393]

I would hope for the sake of the sportsmanship I would hope that everyone would not be a dick when they all said that the first throw was OB.

I think the lesson to be learned from a situation like that is to ascertain the location of the disc before proceeding, or declare a provisional before making the throw.

I lean toward saying that the player/group called it OB and the player played it as if it was OB, so he should finish out the hole as if the original drive was OB all along (extending the logic of once the disc is declared lost, it's played/penalized as lost even if it is subsequently found). The distance lost and the penalty is "enough" punishment for the error.

But I can also see the validity of declaring the mistaken throw from the last in-bounds point as a "practice throw" or a throw from the wrong lie, taking the appropriate penalties, and resuming play from the original disc's position. I don't think either interpretation is incorrect, and neither is necessarily more correct than the other.

However, QA33 (Penalty Rule Priorities) states that the violation with the most severe penalty is applied if more than one rule is applicable. Arguably, playing it out as OB is more punitive since the player is losing distance and adding a penalty throw. Playing it out as a misplayed lie adds a penalty but gives the player the benefit of the distance of the original throw.

 

[DG_player]

This might be slightly off topic, but why on earth would you ever throw a provisional on a shot you thought might be out of bounds?

Wouldn't it always make more sense to go up and see if it's out of bounds, and decide if it would be more advantageous to take the drop rather than re-tee?

 

[sidewinder22]

Speed of play. Also if the disc is lost, you re-tee/throw from previous lie, there is no drop on a lost disc.

This might be slightly off topic, but why on earth would you ever throw a provisional on a shot you thought might be out of bounds?

Wouldn't it always make more sense to go up and see if it's out of bounds, and decide if it would be more advantageous to take the drop rather than re-tee?

 

[JC17393]

This might be slightly off topic, but why on earth would you ever throw a provisional on a shot you thought might be out of bounds?

Wouldn't it always make more sense to go up and see if it's out of bounds, and decide if it would be more advantageous to take the drop rather than re-tee?

It's not a frequent occurrence, but there are definitely situations in which a player will opt to re-throw after an OB shot rather than play the last point in-bounds.

For one, if the tournament ground rules specifically require a re-tee on an OB shot, whether it is on any hole or specific holes on the course, a provisional might be preferable to going down to the disc, finding it OB, and having to trek back to the tee.

Even in "normal rule" circumstances, depending on the nature of the OB area and its surrounding terrain, it's possible that the last in-bounds point would place the player in an undesirable location such that a re-tee would be more advantageous, or at least a cleaner, easier throw to make.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Give him a do-over. It's a friendly game.

:hfive:

 

[Dan Ensor]

This might be slightly off topic, but why on earth would you ever throw a provisional on a shot you thought might be out of bounds?

Wouldn't it always make more sense to go up and see if it's out of bounds, and decide if it would be more advantageous to take the drop rather than re-tee?

He did take the drop. Where the drop would have been if it had not ended up in bounds was still hundreds of feet from where the disc ended up.

What would the group say if everyone thought it was ob, but you decided to go check anyway?

What he should have done is obvious. "I know it's probably ob, but I'm going to call this a provisional anyway, just in case."

 

[DG_player]

Even in "normal rule" circumstances, depending on the nature of the OB area and its surrounding terrain, it's possible that the last in-bounds point would place the player in an undesirable location such that a re-tee would be more advantageous, or at least a cleaner, easier throw to make.

I understand that after locating the disc you may determine you're better off re-teeing. However, wouldn't you at least want to go up and see, before making this decision? If I throw a provisional re-tee, I have no option if it's OB, I have to use the provisional, even if I would have been better off dropping.

 

[JC17393]

I understand that after locating the disc you may determine you're better off re-teeing. However, wouldn't you at least want to go up and see, before making this decision? If I throw a provisional re-tee, I have no option if it's OB, I have to use the provisional, even if I would have been better off dropping.

You're right that in most circumstances, the player would be better served to assess all his options before making a decision. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to throw a provisional. Deciding to throw the provisional rather than going up to assess is his decision, so he has to deal with the consequences (such as having to use the provisional even if it turns out it wouldn't really be his best option).

Keep in mind that a provisional is ALWAYS a choice by the player. Never is a provisional required by rule, nor can a player ever be forced to take one, either.

 

[Time2Shine]

So you can take a provisional even if you land OB?

 

[JC17393]

So you can take a provisional even if you land OB?

If you know that you are OB, there is no need for a provisional. Provisionals are for when the status of the disc is in doubt.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I was just watching an old usdgc vid with a similar scenario. The TD declared the subsequent throws as provisionals after they discovered the original throws were IB, although the group thought the two throws went OB. I'd lean toward this ruling. :\

This gives him the score that his throwing ability earned him; but I completely agree with ":\". He made a non-throwing error, and it seems like there should be a penalty involved. At the same time, though; I wouldn't want to beat him by 1 stroke that day:|