Input for Heavily Wooded Course Design

[Beaver Island]

I live on an island in the middle of Lake Michigan and have been thinking about setting up a disc course on 20 acres of heavily wooded property. Any do's and dont's advice would be appreciated. Ideally the course should be playable for novices and challenging enough for enthusiast. I really can't justify paying for course design and would need it to generate a small amount of revenue. I plan on logging some of the quality hardwood off the lot and could combine my timber activity with "carving" out a course.

 

[bash]

Now I am just a beginner, but the easiest way that I have seen to create a course that the experience player like but easy enough for beginners, is to have multiple tee pads. Some of the courses that I have played on have had differences of more than 200' between the two.

If you would like help with the design, I would love to help. I work for an engineering company and have been wanting to design a course since my first round.

 

[cloudstrife]

I always think its important for a wooded course to have an obvious fairway. Whether it splits into two fairways or is just one, it doesnt matter. But some wooded courses I've played make you wonder what the designer was thinking when the "fairway" is littered with trees. It should be a reward for making a good shot that lands in the fairway. If someone goes out of bounds then I don't think its that bad to have a good amount of trees in their way. Nothing I hate more than staring down a fairway and thinking....."so where am I supposed to shoot this?"

 

[Tim_the_Enchanter]

Good advice so far. Another thing to add, is if it's heavily wooded, don't make the holes TOO long.NAD Park is a great example of a woodsy course done right...dual tees, defined fairways, holes that are long enough to be challenging but not frustrating. Where as Rooster Rock - East is an example of what not to do. One hole there is just following a narrow hiking path, with a steep dropoff on one side...the fairway is probably an average of 10' wide with no clear line to the basket. It's only 330 ft, according to this site, but feel like 500+ when you're struggling through it.

 

[Donovan]

I would suggest you play the area "as is" with a portable target. Just keep working your way around until you think you found the way that first hole should be. Then map that one and play your next hole. I would keep doing that until you have mapped 18 holes out. THEN, play that round over and over until you notice what you like and don't like and make adjustments or enhancements accordingly.

The reason I like this approach, is that you will learn to use what is already naturally made, that may be real nice with minimum expense and you will know after a few rounds what does not make you happy pretty quick.

That sounds like such fun to do!

 

[kvanorsdel]

Sandy Point in Northern WI is a very wooded course. They have dual tees on all of the holes and dual pin positions as well. They do not have very many super long holes but they are challenging.

One thing I like about well designed heavily wooded courses is a transition from the fairway into the woods then deep woods. a shot the ends up 3 ft off the fairway should still be accessible.

 

[Olorin]

Advice

Do your best to make sure that you have balance and variety. Balance the fairway shapes with an even mix of straight, left, right, even S curves or L bends, and balance the elevation changes. Vary the hole lengths too. Have a few pretty short and some quite long.

Beware of "novelty fatigue". Even the most stunning and great feature can get old if it's overused. On woods courses it's tempting to make too many really tight technical shots.

Make sure that there are reasonable fairway routes to every basket. Remember: "frustration foils fun!".

Determine the player skill level audience that your aiming for and design appropriate lengths. This is where a course designer is extremely useful.

Try to find a designer from the Disc Golf Course Design group to give you some advice.

 

[Tim_the_Enchanter]

Oh yeah, one more thing I thought of. If you see a place that would be an awesome place to put a basket, stand there and look around 360 degrees to see any natural paths leading there. I just did this for a temp hole at my home course, found a sweet place for a basket--a natural clearing surrounded by a 20' circle of trees. I looked around, and bam, there was already a "fairway" in place, just needed some minimal trimming with a polesaw and it's pretty much ready to go.

 

[Beaver Island]

Thanks for the input

A lot of good advice, I really appreciate it. I've never played a heavily wooded course, so all the comments will give me things to think about. I'm going to take my disc out with me the next time I go out to the site. Donovan's strategy of starting to play what's there makes good sense. I'll get a few portable baskets and work on getting other people in to play around for some more input. I know I won't be able to layout 18 this way but I can get 3-6 temporary hole, and have some fun as well start to generate interest.

Thanks Olorin for the advice: the skill level will more than likely be novice to mid level. The island needs more recreational opportunities and disc golf would be something else to do. When more advanced players come out I want them to feel that the trip across to Beaver Island was worth it though. I'm going to pull some "maps" and facts together so I can get some designer input. I'm going to have to balance forest management with the course design.

Keep the advice coming. I'll be out cutting wood there in a few days and look forward to tossing some disc around when the works done. I'll post some pictures and lot survey later in the week for anyone thats interested.

 

[Midnightbiker]

Check this course out:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1746

Its my home course and extremely wooded. I took the pics that are posted. This might give you some ideas. Has straight shots, and several hyzer and anhyzer fairway shots. On a course like this you don't want to make the holes too long because the trees are such a factor. The longest hole here is 324ft.

 

[denny ritner]

gps

i've just completed a par 64 layout on 30 acres of dense woods. clearing with brush hog, chainsawing, pulling vines, weed eating, etc., etc., etc.

gps devices are cheap these days. you could probably even borrow one if you don't want to buy. spend a full day walking the property plotting points, and then "design" the course on the computer. there will obviously be subtleties to hash out, but having your course flow mapped out in advance will make it so you can insure adequate buffer distance between holes and address the variety factors that you feel are important.

also, just because a course is on a small piece of land and is mostly shorter and more technical, doesn't mean that there can't be par 4's. i utilized quite a few short doglegs to make sweet par 4's in the 400-550 ft. range.

 

[Godard]

Oh yeah, one more thing I thought of. If you see a place that would be an awesome place to put a basket, stand there and look around 360 degrees to see any natural paths leading there. I just did this for a temp hole at my home course, found a sweet place for a basket--a natural clearing surrounded by a 20' circle of trees. I looked around, and bam, there was already a "fairway" in place, just needed some minimal trimming with a polesaw and it's pretty much ready to go.

This is excellent advice. You should be able to find at least 6 great holes this way, spread out throughout the acreage. Then all you have to do is create 12 OK holes to link everything together.

 

[Texconsinite]

Also, the fact that your course is on an island creates several unique opportunities for hole design. If the situation is right, you could bring the water into play even better than courses that wrap around a lake (Fountain Hills, AZ). The end of a small peninsula would make a great place for a basket (the narrower the better, since it increases the element of risk-reward). That could make a great signature hole if done right, since not many heavily wooded courses are capable of incorporating those kind of shots.

Other hole ideas: Stole this one from Blue Ribbon Pines in MN. When you are cutting down those trees, leave a stump that is about a foot or two above the ground, and mount hte basket in the middle of it. Putting at a raised basket creates a slew of challenges.
1) Its on a different level, so its harder to ace (different spot than players used to aiming for).
2)Also, if you try to go for it, whether from long of short, it is more risky, since the added height will be a longer comeback.
3)Its just a harder putt in general even if its only 20 ft, since players aren't used to throwing their putter at that angle.

Good luck with the course!!

 

[Donovan]

Texconsinite, those are some really good ideas.

You reminded me of another thing with those tree stumps. Leave some tree stumps around the back of the tee areas for people to sit on or put their bags on. That is always a nice natural seating type touch.

 

[t i m]

Some excellent suggestions given already, but I would definitely encourage you to take the advice to find several (3-6) AWESOME holes. The type that people dream about playing -- a few of those holes will keep people coming back no matter what the course looks like.

Also, I would consider as many as three teepads for each hole if you can -- heavily wooded courses can benefit tremendously from this, since just changing a teepad by a few feet can totally change the lines available to the basket. Have the short teepads be short (180'-250' for most holes, with a couple of "long" 330' shots), so novice players will stay interested. Then the second, intermediate teepads should be back probably another 50' on average. Then for the third set of teepads, ever hole doesn't necessarily have to be any longer, but the routes should be more demanding -- think about tighter gaps off the box, forced doglegs that require placement shots, big anhyzer/flick lines, maybe even a forced hammer/thumber/grenade or two, depending on what fits the hole. I'd also make sure that the hardest teeboxes have at least two or three longer holes -- true par 5s if possible. This way your course will appeal to all skill levels -- from the novice to the masochist.

The other thing to try to work in, if possible, is at least ONE hole that is open so that people can really rip their drives. I don't know if you have any field space at all in your 30 acres, but I've noticed that courses with ZERO open holes can feel a little claustrophobic for many people. But if there is even one hole where you can open up and let your arm loose, that will help tremendously -- it gives players a place to practice a totally different kind of shot, and is a hole they can look forward to. Ideally, that open hole would be at least 450' of field from the longest teebox, so that all players have space to really bomb their drives. The pin should probably be back in the trees another 50-80' or so, requiring that placement is more important than pure distance from a strategy perspective, but again, just having that space to rip a full strength drive will help immensely in having players enjoy the course. It's a great stress reliever. In a perfect world, I think hole 9 or 10 on the course would be the field hole, since that's mid round and gives people a mental break and a chance to vent their frustration from all the trees they hit on the first half the course.

The other things to consider: since this will be a private course, where will people park? If you are going to host tournaments, is there ample parking space somewhere? Camping space? (not sure what your final goals are for the land). I've seen several private courses be designed great as long as only 2-3 cars show up to play, but once they start thinking about a tourney, they have to redesign a couple of holes to give people a place to put their cars.

The water ideas are awesome if you can use them -- a peninsula would be really sweet, but also great are shots that force you to put a hyzer or anhyzer out over the water to a basket a little way around the shore -- again, the risk/reward element.

Last thing to consider and keep in mind as you are playing: prevailing winds. Usually, wooded courses aren't too windy, but if you're putting a few holes in the open -- especially around open water -- think about where the wind is usually coming from and how that might affect shots. If a hole out over a lake is always going to be upwind, be kind and make it a little shorter, so people don't get too frustrated and keep losing discs.

Last thing (I promise): make sure that whatever elevation you have is used well and often -- courses that maximize elevation often have the most interest to play. More thoughts to come later on what to do with the elevation you've got, but for now, while you are walking the course, just pay attention to where it is and how to use it. Also, a key part of elevation is paying attention to any low/swampy areas and trying to keep those away from tees/pins/fairways. It's fine to have swampy areas as the rough, but awful to have to hike through a swamp when you had a great drive. So think about how the land drains throughout the year -- courses designed in dry seasons sometimes turn nasty in the spring rain...

Sounds like you've got you're work cut out for you, but I wish you well. I'm jealous. I -- like almost every other disc golfer here -- have always dreamed of designing a course.

 

[Texconsinite]

Another thing to think about is slightly altering elevation or amplifying it, if you will. When you rip out stumps to make fairways, or dig the holes for baskets, that leaves holes or excess dirt. A small mound, or even tree stump on a fariway can cause interesting problems, since it will can mess up rollers and low, ground- hugging drives. With all the trees you are felling, it would be pretty easy to lay one sideways, and build up dirt on one side of it to create a terrace effect, either uphill or downhill.

Many courses have retaining walls of lumber, or circles of rocks to elevate or lower the putting green. This can work too for any section of the course. You have an abundance of trees, and when you log the hardwoods, some other trees will undoubtedly be casualties of war. Rather than just hauling them off or leaving them there, you can use them to create small terraces for added elevation.

Also, (stole this idea from Lambs Creek near Menomenie, WI) if you attach four sections of tree together in a rectagle, you can use them to make gravel tees that will stay level, like the wooden boundaries of a sandbox keeping the sand contained.

On a heavily wooded course, using logs adds to the natural, rough-hewn atmposphere of the course.
You could even go so far as to cut several sections of tree at an angle, and use them to attach the tee signs to. Since it will be a pay-to-play course, little amenities like tee signs matter, but they need not be expensive. You can cut the pieces with a chainsaw, sand them reasonably smooth, and when the hole is finalized, write the layout on the them with a permanent marker, throw some lacquer on those bad boys, and wala! durable, cool-looking tee signs, just attach to the side of a tree by the tee!

Hope that helps. I'm sure I'll have more ideas, since I have 30 (maybe 60 soon) wooded acres in N. Wisconsin that I'm (very slowly) starting to build a course on.

 

[MoPhunk]

Another suggestion is to try and identify trees that have been hollowed out by insects as you will be opening airways into the woods and if you have a really bad storm, like we had in Milan, IL, the weaker trees will for the first time in the lives be exposed to straight or curling winds. I have spent the last three weeks cleaning up Camden 2 in Milan, which is all in the woods with one stop briefly outside on hole 13. We lost tons of trees due to a 90mph shear wind. Another suggestion is to use ravines if you have any. it's always fun to throw up or down across a ravine to a hole. Try to make the holes challenging for both forearm and sidearm throwers. If you do have a ravine save some of the logs and split them and counter sink them in to the ground to make cheap stairs in and out of the ravine. I will save you the trouble of building bridges. I always love the fallen tree in the fairway the you have to take into account when you shoot. Make sure you have places for people to put their trash every few holes. Good luck on the course!

 

[Texconsinite]

Amen Mo, I am building a DG course in some hevily wooded land in N Wisconsin, and I'm definitely taking out some of the popple trees, for that very reason. Most of the ones on our property are all reaching the age where the insides just rot, from top to bottom, and then they fall on the house/driveway/fairway etc. I plan on using the logs for tee boxes, and to help build terraced terrain to accentuate whats already there for variety.

 

[ShannonHG]

Bringing the water into play is good. Consider the depth and amount of trouble disc retrieval will be though, when picking out a spot, because they will find their way in there for sure.
I also agree that hiking around in a big circle and looking for obvious "great" places for tees and greens is very important. Some places just beg to be putting greens. Some natural features will look like they were meant for use in your design. When I designed my course, I walked the entire property from different directions, imagining what could be good hole placements. Like Olorin said, make it variable with lefty and righty shots as evenly distributed as you can. Having some doglegs, and baskets otherwise out of plain sight of the tee, is critical IMO. Recently one of the oldest courses in my area had a big makeover, and they took out most all of the doglegs and left the course mostly straight, boring shots that took the character away from the course and pretty much ruined it IMO. Now you can go out there with a Roc and putter and play the whole course pretty much.
If you have elevation changes, use them! Whether going up, or down, it adds a huge amount of coolness and technical detail.
Short holes that are very challenging, can be great. Don't make the mistake of making them all long, just because you have extra room. Aces are fun!
Good luck and please take your time with it. Get some portables that can later be made more permanent, once you have it all where you are sure you like it. Same goes with the tees. Make em natural at first, then as more people play the course you may get some suggestions you really like, and decide to make new tees, or additional ones.
Try to make most holes equally as fair for a left handed thrower, vs. a right handed thrower, so they can both enjoy the course and people can either throw a flick shot, or a hyzer, and still get there, even if it is a dogleg. When I had some tee positions that I knew I wanted to use (like one for instance, where there were two large prominent trees of equal size, on a hill, and spaced perfectly for the front area of a tee box so you are throwing through a sort of "gate") I got one of my lefty bros over here and we both teed from there, then put the basket about halfway between where each of us landed. That worked for that hole.
USGS is also your friend. Use it. Look on Google Earth and find your site. Scan it for cool topographical features.
Above all, have FUN with it and don't get too serious. There are lots of textbook, and overly challenging courses to go to. Make sure yours is how YOU want it.

 

[Texconsinite]

Any update on the course? How is the logging process going?