Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

[sidewinder22]

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg counterweighting to the opposite side of the fulcrum.

Take a gander at Eveliina and Simon and Marc Jarvis below, releasing the disc with the body mostly sideways to target with right arm and left arm/leg extended out to opposite sides of the tee:

Watch how Henna lines up sideways with shoulders inline to target and rear foot counters to right. She makes no attempt to square her hips or shoulders to the target. She only gets pulled through from momentum.


Note how Wiggins and GG's bodies are basically sideways still at release and rear arm/leg countered behind the opposite side.
Wall Hit Drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

Push the thumb/disc out to the left like a basketball chest pass.

 

[jaysim]

I've been doing fieldwork and videoing myself for a couple of months trying to fix issues with pulling too close to the body, releasing in front of the body and opening the shoulders too early. I just haven't been able to work out these kinks. While reading your post it occured to me that I've probably been thinking about all the wrong things instead of getting to the real issue. Which I now suspect are the hips. I don't want to hijack the thread and I will probably post my own formwork thread at some point.

But I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the timing and the movements of the hips works to get in to this position. I've always thought the throw as starting from the plant - then turning the hips - the hips turning the shoulders - the elbow extending. Seeing these freeze frames I think my main problem is the timing of the hips and posibly even how to actually engage them.

Another thing that caught my eyes was the forward tilting spine. I can see how that relates to the left foot kicking out so wide. I feel like this isn't something every pro does (like Avery Jenkins). Is it necessary for getting properly in to the position Eveliina, Simon and David are in at their release? And does it relate to how the hips should work in the throw?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

No question... I think we've been on a very similar mental path with regards to going from the old school way of teaching to this bigger picture view. So much of the minor issues seem to get worked out automatically, or at least much easier - when you can bang your head around the idea that we're trying to maximize the form to leverage a disc.

For me the thing that really got in the way was that discs are so light, that you can get away with some pretty inefficient stuff and still see great results. But the final steps in developing max power seem to require that we setup like we're throwing a 400-500g disc.

When you setup to do that, you really quickly see how the direction that you want to resist against is different that just what you'd need to resist in order to maintain balance. Example, I can maintain balance shifting at an angle much less than the angle that is maximizing the ability to leverage.

Great topic, I hope this one is something that we can continue to discuss and refine - as it seems very likely to be a fundamental concept.

 

[RFrance]

The pictures of Eveliina and Simon and Wiggins below really clarify for me where over the front foot actually is and how important the rear leg is for counter balance..

 

[aphilso1]

Both Simon and Eviliina appear to be throwing with a significant hyzer, which makes sense given their spinal angle. Also of note is that their lever (throwing arm) is close to 90 degrees relative to their spinal angle, as well. There are times when I feel like I'm close to releasing with this posture and everything is clicking. Those also tend to be the days that I'm throwing everything 30 feet further.
If you were to modify this form to throw with a flat release rather than with a hyzer, what should change? Does the spinal angle become upright rather than forward? If so, how does one maintain a dynamic/athletic posture when completely upright? Or if the spinal angle stays roughly the same, does that mean that the lever should create an obtuse angle relative to the spine? That feels absolutely terrible. I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.

 

[drk_evns]

I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.

Mechanically, you can't get the same leverage you can in hyzer position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hyzer position is the best position for power.

 

[drk_evns]

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg counterweighting to the opposite side of the fulcrum.

Recently I realized I was still using my arm to try and put power on the shots even though I knew it needed to finish extended fully to the hit.

In my subconscious need to put power on the throw with my arm, I was manipulating where the hit point was and it was out of time. Almost as if something pulled the string taught (my muscles) before it naturally would have gone taught at the hit anyways. This caused griplock and accuracy issues.

Now that I've finally "let go" I feel like I can't miss my hit point because everything about the throw is automatically putting my arm there.

Which leads to...

Watch how Henna lines up sideways with shoulders inline to target and rear foot counters to right. She makes no attempt to square her hips or shoulders to the target. She only gets pulled through from momentum. :

Now I'm able to aim the throw with my shoulders because I can trust my arm to get to the hit point. My whole run up I'm just staring down my target and pointing my shoulders at it.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the timing and the movements of the hips works to get in to this position. I've always thought the throw as starting from the plant - then turning the hips - the hips turning the shoulders - the elbow extending. Seeing these freeze frames I think my main problem is the timing of the hips and possibly even how to actually engage them.

2. Another thing that caught my eyes was the forward tilting spine. I can see how that relates to the left foot kicking out so wide. I feel like this isn't something every pro does (like Avery Jenkins). Is it necessary for getting properly in to the position Eveliina, Simon and David are in at their release? And does it relate to how the hips should work in the throw?

1. Timing is a four letter word I don't use in technique. Timing variables are dependent on the individual's anatomy and speed and angles.

It's all about the Kinetic Chain Sequence which you have basically already described from the Ground Up. The throw is really simple, but our brains get in the way. Everything works more together in sync like a one-arm Olympic hammer throw. I think everybody intuitively understands the hammer throw. No hammer thrower thinks about firing the hips or lag or x-factor. Like HUB said, if we were throwing 500g discs things become natural. This is why little kids learn perfect form so easy, to them a 150g disc is like a sledgehammer. You feel what you did wrong when you get in the way of that momentum and what you need to do get out its way and release it.

One-Arm Olympic Hammer/Disc Drill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk



2. It's all about balance. Eveliina, Simon and David are in perfect position for hyzer. Avery tends to throw more anhyzer, but his trail foot still everts countering the arm swing. Since he is more upright his mass is not spreading out left and right nearly as much, so his whole mass is more stacked and centered on the Center of Gravity/Axis of Rotation which also increases rotational speed and hip mobility but trades off leverage.



This is an interesting and funny read "Why Throwers Throw the Way They Throw":
https://slate.com/culture/2004/08/why-throwers-throw-the-way-they-throw.html

 

[sidewinder22]

If you were to modify this form to throw with a flat release rather than with a hyzer, what should change? Does the spinal angle become upright rather than forward? If so, how does one maintain a dynamic/athletic posture when completely upright? Or if the spinal angle stays roughly the same, does that mean that the lever should create an obtuse angle relative to the spine? That feels absolutely terrible. I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.

I never really swing flat. I usually just flip something understable flat from hyzer, or I tilt balance behind heel and throw slight anhyzer with something fairly stable(less preferred). Note the spine tilt is always athletic forward relative to body:

This would be similar to your theoretical vertical spine and "Flat Swing Plane". It would be awkward trying to shift from one foot to the other foot maintaining this. This is why I say Flat doesn't really exist. It's also the most inconsistent angle you could attempt to throw on, 1 degree variation is either hyzer or anhyzer. If you want to throw on 10 degree hyzer or anhyzer and miss by +/- a couple degrees, it's not going to change your shot nearly as drastically.

Mechanically, you can't get the same leverage you can in hyzer position.

Hyzer is more natural/efficient/ergonomic leverage.

Although technically I think you might get more leverage on steep anhyzer or roller snapping from overhead toward the ground like pitching overhand vs submarine, but backhand.

 

[billyjacko]

Another one from the side of Henna Blomroos. I instantly thought she has the best form of any female pro not named PP.

https://gfycat.com/WindingEmptyEmperorpenguin

 

[rhatton1]

This is why little kids learn perfect form so easy, to them a 150g disc is like a sledgehammer. You feel what you did wrong when you get in the way of that momentum and what you need to do get out its way and release it.

Great insight.

Explains why my daughter launches the Ultrastar with far better looking form than she does the lightweight small diameter Ruby disc. You can see her brace and launch the Ultrastar, really leveraging the disc as it's about as big as her!

 

[jaysim]

1. Timing is a four letter word I don't use in technique. Timing variables are dependent on the individual's anatomy and speed and angles.

It's all about the Kinetic Chain Sequence which you have basically already described from the Ground Up. The throw is really simple, but our brains get in the way. Everything works more together in sync like a one-arm Olympic hammer throw. I think everybody intuitively understands the hammer throw. No hammer thrower thinks about firing the hips or lag or x-factor. Like HUB said, if we were throwing 500g discs things become natural. This is why little kids learn perfect form so easy, to them a 150g disc is like a sledgehammer. You feel what you did wrong when you get in the way of that momentum and what you need to do get out its way and release it.

One-Arm Olympic Hammer/Disc Drill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk



2. It's all about balance. Eveliina, Simon and David are in perfect position for hyzer. Avery tends to throw more anhyzer, but his trail foot still everts countering the arm swing. Since he is more upright his mass is not spreading out left and right nearly as much, so his whole mass is more stacked and centered on the Center of Gravity/Axis of Rotation which also increases rotational speed and hip mobility but trades off leverage.



This is an interesting and funny read "Why Throwers Throw the Way They Throw":
https://slate.com/culture/2004/08/why-throwers-throw-the-way-they-throw.html

Thanks for the reply. I'll try doing the Hammer Throw Drill and the Door Frame Drills to try and get another feel before I go to the field again. When I've gotten just a bit further on my own I'll put up a video.

I was really surprised to read that the javelin has been thrown with a spinning technique! It makes perfect sense it was banned. I was then pleasantly surprised to see there actually exists video of it.

 

[jaysim]

Let's try again...

 

[drk_evns]

I love this thread.

What is something we could train with at higher speeds and not hurt ourselves? Tape weight to a disc to feel the forces? I want to be a kid again and feel a HEAVYDISC.

 

[Mocheez]

Another one from the side of Henna Blomroos. I instantly thought she has the best form of any female pro not named PP.

Check out Hailey King's form, both backhand and sidearm. I wouldn't be surprised to see her hitting 500 ft in a couple years (if she isn't already).

 

[billyjacko]

What is something we could train with at higher speeds and not hurt ourselves?

I'm an advocate of using a rubber mallet. Heavy enough that you feel it, but not so much that you can't fully throw it. Also, less chance of serious damage to other objects.

 

[Lumberjack504]

I love this thread.

What is something we could train with at higher speeds and not hurt ourselves? Tape weight to a disc to feel the forces? I want to be a kid again and feel a HEAVYDISC.

Rhatton and I were musing about a training aid a while back in another thread. We both kinda came up with the same idea, and he put out his lunchbox video.

I've also been tinkering with a prototype device but finals got in the way. , it's basically a block of foam that you'll strap to your bicep that wedges between your chest/bicep/forearm but allows your elbow to hinge your forearm in and out. It prevents your arm from collapsing into/hugging your chest. You'll be able to actually throw with it, which I think is huge because most people (me) can't help but subconsciously revert to old habits once a disc is in their hand.

Anyways, my initial dry runs have really illuminated how easy it is to feel the weight of the disc when the upper arm frame is wide, and the disc is redirected outwards or "in front" in a wider arc from the center chest area. A straight line it is not.

Also, Gateway makes a 270 gram wizard....

https://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/product/training-wizard

 

[drk_evns]

Rhatton and I were musing about a training aid a while back in another thread. We both kinda came up with the same idea, and he put out his lunchbox video.

I've also been tinkering with a prototype device but finals got in the way. , it's basically a block of foam that you'll strap to your bicep that wedges between your chest/bicep/forearm but allows your elbow to hinge your forearm in and out. It prevents your arm from collapsing into/hugging your chest. You'll be able to actually throw with it, which I think is huge because most people (me) can't help but subconsciously revert to old habits once a disc is in their hand.

Anyways, my initial dry runs have really illuminated how easy it is to feel the weight of the disc when the upper arm frame is wide, and the disc is redirected outwards or "in front" in a wider arc from the center chest area. A straight line it is not.

Also, Gateway makes a 270 gram wizard....

https://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/product/training-wizard

I remember seeing that. I'm more looking for something that allows me to feel the forces. The lunchbox/foam idea is great for drilling correct shoulder/arm positioning.

I might try out that wizard and see if the weight exaggerates the force enough that my body reacts to it.

 

[slowplastic]

I might try out that wizard and see if the weight exaggerates the force enough that my body reacts to it.

I remember seeing that a long time ago and not really thinking anything of it. Now with the leverage thought process...very intrigued.

If you get one definitely update us if it makes a big difference. That'd be a great tool if so.

 

[Timoteo]

Feldberg used to throw golf clubs. In his Colorado clinic (before it got taken down) he demonstrated a device that was two discs connected together with a short stick or something.