OB or casual relief?

[Shivjon]

There's a hole on one of the local courses with a creek running directly behind the basket, within five feet. This creek usually isn't deep, depending on the weather. During the summer months, it's often dried up. It ranges from dry to mud to ankle-deep water most of the time, and can get knee deep right after a heavy rain.

I've seen discs in the creek played a number of ways; standing on a rock that was placed in the water; standing on a limb stretched across the water; standing in the water; and my personal favorite, back foot on dry ground, front foot on top of the water above the disc.

Are any of those legal? And if not, what is the correct play?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's casual water by default. So you can play the disc where it lies or take free relief back on the line of play just out of the water when it's there.

 

[araytx]

What does the sign on the hole say? As Chuck states absent something compelling to the contrary, it is casual water by default. Pretty much always the case.

 

[Steve West]

There's a hole on one of the local courses with a creek running directly behind the basket, within five feet. This creek usually isn't deep, depending on the weather. During the summer months, it's often dried up. It ranges from dry to mud to ankle-deep water most of the time, and can get knee deep right after a heavy rain.

I've seen discs in the creek played a number of ways; standing on a rock that was placed in the water; standing on a limb stretched across the water; standing in the water; and my personal favorite, back foot on dry ground, front foot on top of the water above the disc.

Are any of those legal? And if not, what is the correct play?

I think you've raised some interesting questions that people are missing. So, let's say there is water in the creek and it is casual. Here's my take:

{Trigger warning: I am more interested in the technical reading and interpretation of the rules than in how this would be called in real life.}

1. "standing on a rock that was placed in the water" You can't PLACE a rock in the water to take a stance on. You can stand on a rock that was already there. If that rock happens to be in the right place behind your marker, that can be the supporting point on your lie.

QA 3: Building a Lie
Q:

My disc landed in a creek that has been declared casual. May I place a rock or a broken limb behind my mark, to stand on in order to keep my feet dry?
A:

If you choose not to take casual relief up to 5m back on the line of play, then you must take your stance as you would anywhere else on the course. You are not allowed to move obstacles on the course to build your lie, or for any other reason, unless they are casual obstacles. If you do not want to play the lie as is, or take casual relief, you may declare Optional Relief or an Optional Rethrow at the cost of one throw. Applicable Rules: 802.04 Throwing from a Stance; 803.01 Obstacles and Relief; 803.02 Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw.

One penalty throw for violating

803.01 A.Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described below, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course.

2. "standing on a limb stretched across the water" If the limb was already there, the question would then be whether that limb is

A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken.

A thin stick wouldn't seem to be a playing surface. But, an 8-foot diameter log would have a playing surface.

If you are placing a foot on it, and it helps you balance at all, I'd say it is a playing surface. Alternatively, if you would be called for a foot fault for placing your foot on the limb in front of the lie (without any other part of the foot on another surface), then it must be a supporting point. I think.

My view: no violation if the limb was already there and the foot is not touching the limb in front of the lie.

803.01 if the player put the limb there.

3. "standing in the water" No problem. The bottom of the creek is a playing surface.

(Or so I thought, until I thought about 4.)

4. "back foot on dry ground, front foot on top of the water above the disc"

A. If they are trying to call the front foot a supporting point to satisfy this:

1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie

I'll answer as if you meant the foot is hovering on the line on the surface of the water that goes back 30 cm behind the floating disc. If so, points for creativity. But, I can only think of one person for whom the surface of liquid water could be called a supporting point, and He always miraculously aces anyway.

B. If the question is whether having a foot touching nothing but the surface of the water above the disc (which is front of the lie) is a stance violation for failing this:

2. Have no supporting point in contact with the marker disc or any object (including the playing surface) closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc;

Well, is water an object? Uh.... I don't think so. I've always thought you can wade right into casual water. It appears that water is an obstacle, because it is listed in 803.01 B, Casual Obstacles to a Stance.

But, object is not the same as obstacle. I think that is an important distinction, which is why a different word is used.

Even if water is an object (which I don't think it is), is the foot a supporting point?

any part of a player's body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object that provides support.

That foot is only a supporting point if it is touching something that provides support, which I would say the water can't do. (Unless maybe if you are wearing those canoe-shoes.)

I'd say a violation for missing the lie (unless that back foot happened to be in contact with the lie).

 

[Shivjon]

Thanks for the responses! Sounds like casual relief chains out.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's casual water by default. So you can play the disc where it lies or take free relief back on the line of play just out of the water when it's there.

Yes.

Except, of course, that we're used to such water features being declared OB, and when we encounter them in a non-tournament situation many of us just assume that and consider them OB.

Which makes me think of the answer in 3 parts: (1) It's casual water unless designated as OB, (2) If you play it as casual, these rules apply, and (3) If you play it as OB, these other rules apply.

It also makes me wonder about the course design. I started to say that if the course designer put a basket that near the creek, he probably intended it as an OB hazard. That's awful close, but not unprecedented. But besides being close and seasonal, it sounds like it's so small as to be fairly random. On the other hand, putting a basket that close to regular casual water doesn't sound like a great idea, either, since so many players would be dealing with the nuisance of the wet area on their putt.

 

[Shivjon]

DavidSauls: It also makes me wonder about the course design. I started to say that if the course designer put a basket that near the creek, he probably intended it as an OB hazard. That's awful close, but not unprecedented. But besides being close and seasonal, it sounds like it's so small as to be fairly random. On the other hand, putting a basket that close to regular casual water doesn't sound like a great idea, either, since so many players would be dealing with the nuisance of the wet area on their putt.

The creek bed is much deeper than the creek itself, like waist deep and over five feet wide, with the creek running in the bottom/middle. So, there's a decent chance that a throw lands "in the creek" but doesn't get wet. It's obviously much less of a nuisance during the dry months, than before the creek has a chance to run itself fairly dry after rains.

It actually adds to the challenge of the hole, in a frustratingly-good kind of way. It's a short hole that looks like an easy birdie, except trees are everywhere; there isn't a straight path to the basket. The preferred shot (RHBH) is a spike hyzer around the trees that's angled enough not to skip. Even big skips can skip over the creek if it hits the ground flat enough. But, un-good throws have a penchant for either hitting trees or ending up wet and/or muddy. I enjoy it for being unique and challenging.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sounds like more of an interesting rec play hole than for competition.

 

[Shivjon]

Sounds like more of an interesting rec play hole than for competition.

It's on a short, wooded beginner-level course where most holes are 200-250 feet with some elevation changes. It's nice to have somewhere to throw midranges regularly. The other local courses are long and open where it's usually driver-driver-putter. I like variety.

 

[F.Luke]

For some reason I assume this hole is number 7? Wellspring in Burlington

 

[F.Luke]

I mean hole 8. Should've quickly done some research.