Overweight discs

[tbird888]

I'm on the side that's arguing once it's got the PDGA approved stamp it's a good disc unless it's altered in some way that does go against the rules.

The PDGA Approved doc doesn't have an asterisk next to the max weight spec that says "unless it's stamped PDGA Approved". If the disc weighs more than the doc says it should, it's illegal. That's the point of a rule. This isn't the Constitution.

 

[scarpfish]

I just can't wait until we see the scenario were discussing here play out in a real world setting.

Thing is, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

 

[JAKE master]

I have never called anyone in a tournament. .

yea he was bluffing anyway..

 

[prerube]

10 points for search feature usage.

Sorry for the little flame war, I think it was more carry over from another issue in another thread and did not help this topic.

 

[tbird888]

I just can't wait until we see the scenario were discussing here play out in a real world setting.

Thing is, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

I hope that whoever has to deal with it asks the accuser what his username on DGCR is.

 

[Okie-J]

The PDGA Approved doc doesn't have an asterisk next to the max weight spec that says "unless it's stamped PDGA Approved". If the disc weighs more than the doc says it should, it's illegal. That's the point of a rule. This isn't the Constitution.

Yeah, I understand the rule tbird. Just saying it won't be me that calls anyone on it.

Others have argued same thing in this thread.

What's the point of PDGA Approved if it might not be? We got flex issues, weight issues, maybe diameter issues, IDK.

How much money does the PDGA get every time a manufacture stamps PDGA on a piece of plastic? Well then, it's their problem or should be. That's the whole point of approving a disc. Let them police the manufacturers.

(Nice editing job prerube.)

 

[tbird888]

Yeah, I understand the rule tbird. Just saying it won't be me that calls anyone on it.

Others have argued same thing in this thread.

While I get what you're saying, you're technically allowing people to cheat. Regardless of why the rule exists, it does exist. Calling someone for a foot fault but not for mentioning their Wizard weighs over max weight means you're picking and choosing the rules. I can't respect that.

My reasoning for this is because I want the PDGA to refine some of their rules. Enforcing disc properties is more of a standard than a rule. I agree with you that it's the PDGA's responsibility, but that will not change unless it becomes an issue. Since they're comprised of volunteers, they aren't going to do anything unless forced (by it becoming an issue). Not enforcing rules because they're inconvenient to do so tends to let things carry on like nothing's wrong. There's obviously something wrong.

Plastics cool differently and cause disc properties to change (Cyclone anyone?). A disc that cools larger than it did in the plastic in which it was approved would technically allow for a heavier max weight. If the PDGA isn't going to enforce their standards and expects players to make that call, they're essentially invalidating their own rules (how are we supposed to enforce technical specs on the course? Hell, how are we supposed to enforce those specs with our own equipment at home?). If our equipment isn't close to legal, why call anything at that point?

 

[prerube]

not sure what edit you are referring to.
But the PDGA does not weight every disc their stamp is on.
If you get a disc that is overweight the vendor or the manufacturer should take it back for you.

 

[Okie-J]

Well it's not that I want to allow people to cheat at all. If I call a foot fault then it requires a second. And I will call blatant foot faults and second them.

But calling an illegal disc is something else entirely. You have to have a way to determine if the disc is in fact illegal. If I see a big hole or something in your disc and call it, an official or anyone else can just look and see the hole. Right? But if you just claim because my disc says 180 or 500 or anything else that it's really 180 or 500 your gona need to prove it.

What if a disc is legal to 177 and I know from experience and from having say 30 of them at home that all the disc marked 177 are actually 179. Should I call everyone that I see carrying said disc? Would I be cheating if I didn't? I mean, I have a good reason to believe that their disc is overweight don't I?

Then how would I prove it? Whip out my scales? Ok so then like has been argued, how accurate are my scales?

 

[prerube]

Well it's not that I want to allow people to cheat at all. If I call a foot fault then it requires a second. And I will call blatant foot faults and second them.

But calling an illegal disc is something else entirely. You have to have a way to determine if the disc is in fact illegal. If I see a big hole or something in your disc and call it, an official or anyone else can just look and see the hole. Right? But if you just claim because my disc says 180 or 500 or anything else that it's really 180 or 500 your gona need to prove it.

What if a disc is legal to 177 and I know from experience and from having say 30 of them at home that all the disc marked 177 are actually 179. Should I call everyone that I see carrying said disc? Would I be cheating if I didn't? I mean, I have a good reason to believe that their disc is overweight don't I?

Then how would I prove it? Whip out my scales? Ok so then like has been argued, how accurate are my scales?

If the disc is marked at an illegal weight then you can call it. If no one has a scale, then I guess you are screwed. Again, you have to know the max weight of the disc you are calling.

 

[tbird888]

I didn't say check every disc. I said if someone is talking about the weight of their disc, and it's an illegal weight.

I'm trolling you for pete's sake. Who talks about disc weight in conversation during competition? Only a very small percentage of "die hard" forum rats are the ones discussing this. The PDGA doesn't care to enforce the standards (they want competitors to enforce them...without equipment...). They don't want to babysit the manufacturers. Do you?

 

[Okie-J]

While I get what you're saying, you're technically allowing people to cheat. Regardless of why the rule exists, it does exist. Calling someone for a foot fault but not for mentioning their Wizard weighs over max weight means you're picking and choosing the rules. I can't respect that.

Your missing the subtleties of the argument prerube. Look at my quote of tbird. He says he can't respect picking and choosing of rules. Ok, I'm good with that.

How can I mention that someones Wizards is overweight if I don't see it on a scale. How can I second a foot fault if I don't see it?

You can say someones disc has a number written on it but that doesn't mean anything. A person can write whatever they want on their disc. It's one of the few things a person can legally do to their disc. Maybe their "unique" mark is the number 180 IDK and neither do you. Now, I'm not talking about a person jumping up and down bragging about their disc being overweight. That would be the same as someone telling everybody how much better their Roc flies since the made it a flat top. Well, except a person can't add weight to a disc like they can flatting one. So again, they bought a disc, it said PDGA approved.

 

[Okie-J]

Troll better next time tbird, I don't know what to tell you.

But before I stop, this rule will be called this year. Watch. It's gona happen.

 

[tbird888]

Troll better? You bit and even quoted my trolling as evidence in an argument. I just didn't feel like running through the rest of this argument again.

 

[prerube]

Your missing the subtleties of the argument prerube. Look at my quote of tbird. He says he can't respect picking and choosing of rules. Ok, I'm good with that.

How can I mention that someones Wizards is overweight if I don't see it on a scale. How can I second a foot fault if I don't see it?

You can say someones disc has a number written on it but that doesn't mean anything. A person can write whatever they want on their disc. It's one of the few things a person can legally do to their disc. Maybe their "unique" mark is the number 180 IDK and neither do you. Now, I'm not talking about a person jumping up and down bragging about their disc being overweight. That would be the same as someone telling everybody how much better their Roc flies since the made it a flat top. Well, except a person can't add weight to a disc like they can flatting one. So again, they bought a disc, it said PDGA approved.

I have already answered this question. If it is marked 180 and the max is 174, then you can call it. It is their fault because they wrote 180 as their mark. If I dye the Gateway Ninja logo on a Katana and someone calls it. I should not be surprised and it would be my job to prove it is a Katana.

 

[JC17393]

If I dye the Gateway Ninja logo on a Katana and someone calls it. I should not be surprised and it would be my job to prove it is a Katana.

I would think the molded in "Innova Champion Discs, Inc" on the underside of the disc would be enough to prove it isn't a Ninja. At which point, the question is whether or not Innova has produced and sold a non-approved high speed driver. Fairly certain the answer is no, so at that point does it matter if it is a Katana or a Destroyer or a Vulcan? Your job of proving it isn't that tough.

As for someone marking all their discs with "180", perhaps it's their local club membership number or something. If you believe it's the weight of the disc and they say it's their unique mark and not a weight, isn't "proving" that as simple as pulling out another disc or two in their bag marked with "180"? If ALL of their discs are marked with "180", are you going to say they're all questionable? What about the Blizzard Wraith in his bag that has a manufacturer-written weight of 143 grams and a big ol' "180" written in marker?

Like many things that get discussed on this and other forums, it is much ado about nothing. Yes, there are some discs that get sold that are overweight. It's been the case since the beginning of the game. It's not a conspiracy and it's not the end of the world. We're not about to enter a new era where everyone is questioning everyone's discs and TDs have to have scales and weigh every disc in every bag before a tournament starts. No one with any dignity or self-respect is going to go around calling people out for illegal discs just to mess with their competitors. Life is going to trudge on, same as it always has.

 

[JAKE master]

ill state the obvious in that this is a heated debate.
but what is the real advantage/ cheating aspect of having a 175 wizard, if a 174.3g is max, according to inbounds info.
countless people say it lunacy to think you can tell the difference in a gram
not really looking for a, 'cuz its only approved to 174 response. '

 

[tbird888]

ill state the obvious in that this is a heated debate.
but what is the real advantage/ cheating aspect of having a 175 wizard, if a 174.3g is max, according to inbounds info.
countless people say it lunacy to think you can tell the difference in a gram
not really looking for a, 'cuz its only approved to 174 response. '

The cheating aspect is that the PDGA has a list of discs approved for competition and the qualities that make it legal. Max weight is on that list. If the max weight of a disc is 175, and you're throwing one that weighs over that, your disc no longer conforms to the standards set by the governing body of event in which you're playing. That means you're cheating.

It's only approved to 174 is the appropriate response. Is a pitcher who's curve ball is dropping another three inches compared to everyone else because he's throwing a ball with five more stitches going to get away with..."it's only five more stitches. What's the big deal?!?!" Why should that be any different in a self-governed sport?

 

[JAKE master]

It's only approved to 174 is the appropriate response.

10-4
i like playing by the rules, even if it means i loose a tourny, cough cough calling myself OB to find out later by everyone else's standards i was in.
it just sucks cuz now i feel the need the need to swap my putters out for at .7g less.

im thinking more along the lines, does the pdga think that a 176 will fly 100ft further than a 174? something to that affect

 

[JC17393]

im thinking more along the lines, does the pdga think that a 176 will fly 100ft further than a 174? something to that affect

I don't think there was that much thought put into it at all, to be honest. I don't think it's a matter of 174 is good, 176 is bad at all. They needed draw a line in the sand to limit disc weights back when the trend was to make them heavier and heavier and heavier (there were no tech standards back then). And that line they drew was the formula of 8.3g per cm of diameter. Suppose they could have said 8.2 or 8.4 or 9.0, but for whatever reason they picked 8.3.

It's akin to asking why a football field is 100 yards instead of 102 or 98 yards...I mean, is there any real advantage/disadvantage if a field is 101 yards long instead of 100? Of course not, but way back when, they picked a number to be the standard and that was that. Football fields are 100 yards long. Discs in competition are limited in weight to 8.3g per cm of diameter. Anything heavier is illegal for competition.