Perpetual Standstill Drill

[Brychanus]

Perpetual Standstill Drill - rationale and pre-requisites:
As I've been learning the BH, I find it increasingly helpful to distinguish isolating and integratingdrills.

Isolating drills focus on posture and individual motions with few degrees of freedom, whereas integrating drills connect prior movements to one another in a smooth flow. I came up with this integrating drill because at this moment in my BH form, I've onboarded a lot of isolated movements, but as you can see if you look at my form thread, the transition from standstill to x-step has been moving quickly but is revealing all kinds of critical breaks in my form since there is a lot to integrate.

It seems almost like an axiom that going back to the standstill to get basic motions right accelerates learning because you can strip away other complexity, and you really need to get what happens between the drive step and plant step right for the x-step to work well.

One thing I see consistently in my form and others' is that getting that smooth, nonlinear, unfurling motion between the drive and plant leg is really challenging, especially for people who start later in life. So, here's a "Perpetual Standstill Drill" - I have pulled together many of the basic motions I've learned between these two critical steps that power the sling. It helps to practice & bind together:

1. The backswing extension & tilt.
2. The weight shift.
3. The off arm.
4. The hip "Figure 8" in X, Y, and Z dimensions.
5. The spinal/head pendulum and shoulder separation entering the hit.

If any of these pieces are unclear, work on the drills that focus on those first to isolate the motions. Then once you have them, this drill is for you!

The Drill:
Video

Instructions:
- Get in your comfortable, neutral standstill stance. Keep feet stationary throughout (other than allowing heels to lift with weightshift).
- Stay leveraged between the ankles outside knees outside hips throughout the motion.
- Level out your swing plane as though you would throw.
- Extend into backswing swinging shoulder back & with shoulder tilt, letting hand/arm lift weight from plant foot.
-Hershyzer/buttwipe into plant w/ drive leg leverage, letting weight shift swing the throwing hand, off arm collecting to hip to assist.
- Allow the spine & head to curve/tilt into backswing, and roll through the curve/tilt into the imaginary "hit" point.
- Follow through upper body until the point when the plant foot would release, then flow back into backswing again, repeat.

You can get it rolling dynamically, and vary the speed and size of the backswing and swing. Try slightly different stances and spine angles. You should feel that 3D hip rock into Figure 8 motions, and your head/spine pendulum tilting back and forth in synchrony when you're hitting it. You can quickly tell when certain motions become decoupled from one another, and then reset/slow down to smooth it out and find balance.

 

[Brychanus]

*Note: of course, there's no hard line between an "isolating" and "integrating" drill since most drills involve multiple degrees of freedom. So it's helpful to think of drills along a continuum between "fully isolated" (e.g., a calf extension) and "fully integrated" (e.g., an entire, fundamentally sound DG BH movement).

 

[TheOtherBill]

"getting that smooth, nonlinear, unfurling motion between the drive and plant leg is really challenging, especially for people who start later in life. "

So true for me, started in my mid-30s and never played bolf or baseball before to get the 'feel' of using my body in a swinging motion.

 

[Brychanus]

***important to note: be careful with that lead shoulder in this drill. Here I am emphasizing the continuous middle-body motion/"orbiting" in the center of the body & around the hips and spine. It is possible to do it with a closed shoulder as if actually throwing. Will post momentarily.

 

[Brychanus]

Modified into Part 1 and Part 2.

Part 1 allows full range of motion isolating the upper body/pelvis/spine. The goal is to isolate the dynamics in those parts of the body.

Part 2 shows a variant that stops at closed shoulder and reloads the backswing.

 

[sidewinder22]

You seem to be stuck between your feet and not really shifting back or forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m57s

 

[Brychanus]

You seem to be stuck between your feet and not really shifting back or forth.

Alright, I don't want to reinforce any bad behavior or to be too duplicative.

What I'm after is a synthesizing perpetual motion to reinforce full control through the drive-plant phase.

I revised the video again - the intent here is to find perpetual motion drills that don't commit misleading motions. So Part 1 is now essentially a partial perpetual slow swing to the shoulder hammer hit w/out shift, then Part 2 is a complete slow swing disc drill backswing-swing-backswing motion.

I'm very sensitive to whether it either seems redundant or I can improve my own appearance - happy in either case to continue to revise here or offline, have thread deleted/replaced for cleanliness, or removed if it seems like this is a fool's errand!

 

[BraceDisgrace]

I don't know if this is the right thread for this question, but - why is your hit at eye-level?

I recently became aware of a hip/x-step issue that I am fixing thanks to the hershyzer drill. This in turn affected my plant leg and brace and my shots always come out at a 90 degree angle in relation to the ground. Seeing this drill made me realize that a good trajectory is more akin to 110 degrees.

Am I understanding this right? Are there any specific drills regarding trajectory? Is it just a result of a proper brace?

 

[Brychanus]

Good Q - it's not in real throws. This is why I was on the fence letting this drill stand - it is helpful in the sense of "binding" the body motion between the drive and plant stride, but it doesn't end in the "stacked" posture over the plant stride.

Like SW22 called out in Post 6 here, the hit position in a real swing is related to that posture where his head is stacked over the leading/plant leg in follow thru. If you're striding/x-stepping, the head will still dynamically balanced heading in to the swing relative to the plant foot (like it end sup balanced over the plant foot in SW22's posture when he is stationary). My hit in real swings is in a ~10 o'clock-ish position relative to my shoulders, ahead of and below my lead shoulder (or, that's roughly where it ends up after each form tweaking cycle).

The exact position of the hit in space varies due to posture/the swing path, but it ends up being similar relative to the body (as I understand it). The disc trajectory will vary with your overall posture entering the plant/swing phase, which controls the hit's position in space & disc angle, etc.

In my personal experience tightening up standstills, I'd recommend first getting into a form that gets you throwing relatively flat (slight hyzerflip for me) and straight first. Once you get the swing braced up in the plant leg, you can tinker with posture/swing planes. If you're just starting out, I think practicing posture/trajectory from One Leg is really helpful - getting your weight leading the swing and controlling your posture in that simplified position works wonders.

I do have some thoughts about specific field drills, but I want to get a little deeper into cleaning up a bit more of my form first.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

I recently became aware of a hip/x-step issue that I am fixing thanks to the hershyzer drill. This in turn affected my plant leg and brace and my shots always come out at a 90 degree angle in relation to the ground

Sorry, this looks like I'm saying that the fixing-part affected my plant when I meant before starting working on it.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

Like SW22 called out in Post 6 here, the hit position in a real swing is related to that posture where his head is stacked over the leading/plant leg in follow thru. If you're striding/x-stepping, the head will still dynamically balanced heading in to the swing relative to the plant foot (like it end sup balanced over the plant foot in SW22's posture when he is stationary). My hit in real swings is in a ~10 o'clock-ish position relative to my shoulders, ahead of and below my lead shoulder (or, that's roughly where it ends up after each form tweaking cycle).

If that's true, what is the value in performing the drill in a manner that positions the body differenty compared to an actual throw? And is there any fundamental reason for going so slow that it's almost a static rotation? I understand that the drill is meant to get the body used to the motion, weightshift etc but I don't fully understand the other parts. Come to think of it, I've seen something similar in one of SW22's videos but I can't recall which one.

I need to make my own post in the Form review forum, just need to get some video in proper angles.

 

[Brychanus]

If that's true, what is the value in performing the drill in a manner that positions the body differenty compared to an actual throw? And is there any fundamental reason for going so slow that it's almost a static rotation? I understand that the drill is meant to get the body used to the motion, weightshift etc but I don't fully understand the other parts. Come to think of it, I've seen something similar in one of SW22's videos but I can't recall which one.

I need to make my own post in the Form review forum, just need to get some video in proper angles.

There's maybe no value in this drill for many players. Many drills occur in different absolute postures than the actual throw (almost by definition because they are not the actual throw). For me, I had trouble obtaining sequenced/postural control even in stationary positions. Learning to control pelvic tilt, weight transfer foot-to-foot, etc. in one smooth progression was very hard. Here, the continuous nature over those features was the idea. But this drill does not solve the problems of absolute postures and shifting into the throw, etc. And I wouldn't want anyone to mistake the absolute motion as a "disc golf throw". So that's why I've been open to cutting it entirely if it sows confusion and bad habits.

To address the "something similar" from SW22, you might be thinking of the "Slow Motion Drill Perpetually Longer". I would suggest that you and others should start there. It's great and everyone should do it! Again, some of the postures illustrated there are not part of a typical throw. But it teaches you sequences, posture, balance, and control over various phases/ranges of motion. In the Slow Motion Drill, the swing line of the disc is truer to the path along which the hit will occur relative to the body frame with the shoulder closed, but your posture is more upright.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

There's maybe no value in this drill for many players. Many drills occur in different absolute postures than the actual throw (almost by definition because they are not the actual throw).

Sorry, I'm expressing my self a bit clumsily. It wasn't meant as criticism of your drill, I'm just trying to work it out in my head.

A drill doesn't have to mimic the intended end move, obviously. I just thought maybe I was missing out on some cue and got me thinking about hit and trajectory.

To address the "something similar" from SW22, you might be thinking of the "Slow Motion Drill Perpetually Longer". I would suggest that you and others should start there. It's great and everyone should do it! Again, some of the postures illustrated there are not part of a typical throw. But it teaches you sequences, posture, balance, and control over various phases/ranges of motion. In the Slow Motion Drill, the swing line of the disc is truer to the path along which the hit will occur relative to the body frame with the shoulder closed, but your posture is more upright.

Ah yes, there it is! I'm still not sure what the point of the drill is. I mean I get that it slowly guides you through the chain of events, but it's too slow for your body to "feel it". What is the significance of the disc drop?

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry, I'm expressing my self a bit clumsily. It wasn't meant as criticism of your drill, I'm just trying to work it out in my head.

No worries! I am fully open to criticism, and I'm already especially self-critical about stuff I post here since it's all pretty new to me. So I really appreciate it.

A drill doesn't have to mimic the intended end move, obviously. I just thought maybe I was missing out on some cue and got me thinking about hit and trajectory.

Gotcha - no, all of that is to be found elsewhere.

Ah yes, there it is! I'm still not sure what the point of the drill is. I mean I get that it slowly guides you through the chain of events, but it's too slow for your body to "feel it". What is the significance of the disc drop?

The disc drop is the hit. But because it is a slow drill, the slow "hit" is when his arm/wrist are fully extended out to his side. You're trying to achieve the same idea in a real swing, but centripetal force is curling the disc toward you, and your arm is slinging against that force. So the net result is the arm is more curved in the actual swing.

I believe SW22 was inspired by Ben Hogan's slow swing golf routine. The idea is that if you have complete control over your sequence, postures, and balance at low speed, you can speed it up to higher (throwing) speed. Conversely, if you can't slow your throw down and remain smooth, you probably lack control in an area that you weren't aware of. Ben Hogan looks almost exactly like a video slowed down when he does his drills - he's in total, remarkable control of the entire swing.

That SW22 slow drill was critical for me to learn how to swing the disc more like a hammer than a frisbee and unpack the kinematic sequence especially as you get your weight into the front leg. Before that, it was a crapshoot where the disc path would go and I was effing my pec and shoulder up. Afterwards, I at least had an imprint for where the swing needs to go once I plant. I still use slow drills when new changes feel shaky.

So I'd say there are a couple points: (1) doing the drill and getting feedback on it, which can triage where you have breaks in your control. Then (2) smooth them out in the slow drill, then speed it up bit by bit until it's a throw.

My dance instructor will often say "never chase a feeling". But if there's one you're after here, it's that as your sensorimotor perception/control improves, your brain will feel like even fast swings are pretty slow. Then you inch it up for more speed, a bit at a time.

Slow makes smooth. Smooth becomes fast. Fast is far.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

The disc drop is the hit. But because it is a slow drill, the slow "hit" is when his arm/wrist are fully extended out to his side. You're trying to achieve the same idea in a real swing, but centripetal force is curling the disc toward you, and your arm is slinging against that force. So the net result is the arm is more curved in the actual swing.

I believe SW22 was inspired by Ben Hogan's slow swing golf routine. The idea is that if you have complete control over your sequence, postures, and balance at low speed, you can speed it up to higher (throwing) speed. Conversely, if you can't slow your throw down and remain smooth, you probably lack control in an area that you weren't aware of. Ben Hogan looks almost exactly like a video slowed down when he does his drills - he's in total, remarkable control of the entire swing.

Thanks for taking the time to clear that up, makes a lot of sense! I guess I'm used to the idea that drills get you connected to the feel of a move more directly (usually the case in most sports) and therefore making the super slow-mo idea feel disconnected. But if I've learned anything during the last 18 months, it's that SW22 has a pretty good grasp on the biomechanics of this sport.

So I'd say there are a couple points: (1) doing the drill and getting feedback on it, which can triage where you have breaks in your control. Then (2) smooth them out in the slow drill, then speed it up bit by bit until it's a throw.

My dance instructor will often say "never chase a feeling". But if there's one you're after here, it's that as your sensorimotor perception/control improves, your brain will feel like even fast swings are pretty slow. Then you inch it up for more speed, a bit at a time.

Slow makes smooth. Smooth becomes fast. Fast is far.

It's ironic that I've repeated Danny Lindahl's mantra "slow is smooth, smooth is far" for over a year and still rush things. But maybe I kind of need to learn things the hard way.