Player's lie verification

[JC17393]

The last time I checked, the marker disc, whether it be the thrown disc or a mini, was a disc that establishes the lie. Feel free to cite the rule that demonstrates that's not the case.

So, by that interpretation, any throw from behind a mini is a violation. Since by your interpretation, if the lie isn't established by the thrown disc (as in left on the ground and used as the marker), it's a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc.

I don't think that a mini constitutes a disc in this since the implication of the rule is a disc used in play, which a mini can't be.

 

[JoakimBL]

To invoke penalties here, I think the TD would need to have the group/player show from where he made the throw, and after that have the player who found the disc show where it was found. If those to locations are not close, and the player doesn't have an explanation along the lines of a disc that he could reasonably have believed was his, the correct penalty will have to be a DQ for cheating. If there is a reasonable explanation, a 2 throw penalty for misplay, might be applicable.

 

[Steve West]

I'm using the closest applicable rule per 801.01A. Oversight by RC not to cover throwing from anywhere versus your lie.

I don't think it is an oversight. Throwing from somewhere other than within 30 cm behind a marker – whether by a foot or a hundred feet – is a stance violation. That's different than playing the wrong lie, where the player is playing from within 30 cm of what he thinks is a marker. Both situations are covered with non-overlapping rules. The closest applicable rule in this case is the actual rule that is applicable.

If the player took the TD to the spot and they found someone else's disc there, then I'd call it a misplay.

Except the OP is not simply an example of players FAILING to verify the lie, it's an example of NOT HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY to check the lie:
If you're keeping score, that's two courtesy violations: advancing beyond the away player (801.04.C) and throwing out of turn (801.05.D).

805.02 Scoring
H. After the scorecard is turned in, the total score as recorded shall stand with no appeal, except for the following circumstances:
1. Penalty throws may be assessed at whatever time the infraction is discovered until the Director declares the tournament officially over or all awards have been distributed.

Good point. I was aware of that, but I was thinking there was no penalty to be assessed, since

801.01 Application of the Rules
B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. Calls must be made promptly.

So, I was thinking all the courtesy violations and the stance violations were either called at the time or didn't become penalties. Unlike misplays, where the rules explicitly state they can be figured out later.

So, if whatever happened after the card was turned in did result in a penalty, it could be assessed. And, as has been pointed out, if the player did throw from a better place on purpose, the penalty is DQ.

The last time I checked, the marker disc, whether it be the thrown disc or a mini, was a disc that establishes the lie. Feel free to cite the rule that demonstrates that's not the case.

The maker disc marks the lie. The word used here is "establishes". A thrown disc up in a tree establishes a lie, but does not mark it. A thrown disc that is OB establishes the lie, but the lie is not at the disc.

 

[geoloseth]

To invoke penalties here, I think the TD would need to have the group/player show from where he made the throw, and after that have the player who found the disc show where it was found. If those to locations are not close, and the player doesn't have an explanation along the lines of a disc that he could reasonably have believed was his, the correct penalty will have to be a DQ for cheating. If there is a reasonable explanation, a 2 throw penalty for misplay, might be applicable.

This becomes a little difficult to do when almost all of the players fail to stay after the round. One left during due to being sick, another left directly after the round before the card was turned in. And it seemed like the TD was not too interested in digging further. The last remaining player on the card that brought the issue up was not posing a question, but was telling the TD that he thought some form of rule breaking had occured but was not sure what violation it was. However in the end he turned the card in for not wanting to cause grief and not having anyone left to corroborate the actual events.

Except the OP is not simply an example of players FAILING to verify the lie, it's an example of NOT HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY to check the lie

That's exactly how it was relayed.


So then the question comes up in a situation like this --- When do actions like these go from being a stance violation to willful attempt to skirt the rules and gain an advantage?

The times that I've played with Player A and the reputation that he has; I make sure that I keep track of the number of throws he has per hole, watch his stance and run-up, verify the rules violations he calls on other people, and generally shadow him during the round. He's done a similar thing when I was on his card and I made sure someone went with him to check if his drive was OB or not. This is the kind of player your have to argue that there is no benefit-to-the-player if he disagrees with everyone that his disc is not over 2m in a tree when it's physically measured 2' over my head and I'm 6'2".

 

[PhattD]

To invoke penalties here, I think the TD would need to have the group/player show from where he made the throw, and after that have the player who found the disc show where it was found. If those to locations are not close, and the player doesn't have an explanation along the lines of a disc that he could reasonably have believed was his, the correct penalty will have to be a DQ for cheating. If there is a reasonable explanation, a 2 throw penalty for misplay, might be applicable.

I don't think even this is sufficient. He could have thrown his disc exactly where he made his second shot from and then forgotten it and someone moved it later. It's really hard to prove cheating like this after the fact. You could confront him as the TD and maybe get a confession. I would be inclined to announce at players meetings that there have been reports of cheating and advise all players to verify each others lies and call people on courtesy violations for going off ahead of the group.

 

[DavidSauls]

If you're keeping score, that's two courtesy violations: advancing beyond the away player (801.04.C) and throwing out of turn (801.05.D).

I thought about that, and it's possibly true. I wasn't clear from the description of the incident that the player threw out of order, or simply proceeded to his disc too soon, then threw in turn, but when others hadn't had a chance to verify it. (I'll admit to doing this a lot, too---stomping off to find my disc in the woods, but waiting until my turn to actually throw it.)

 

[JoakimBL]

I don't think even this is sufficient. He could have thrown his disc exactly where he made his second shot from and then forgotten it and someone moved it later. It's really hard to prove cheating like this after the fact. You could confront him as the TD and maybe get a confession.

While that could happen, I think it's pretty unlikely to happen over the course of a tournament. Also, this isn't a murder trial where you have to prove prove something beyond reasonable doubt. It's pretty much TD discretion.

 

[araytx]

This doesn't help geo, but if you knew this player had these kinds of tendencies before the round started and you were keeping a close eye on him, then a little preventative officiating would have helped. Seeing his throw was far away out from everyone else's, I would have said something like, "let's find all the discs before we throw, everyone needs to find theirs." Then depending on whose shot was right in the middle of the fairway, I'd send that person to go help him find his disc.

As several have said, the courtesy violations exist, but without being called immediately I don't see any recourse after the round. Perhaps the TD could tell Player A (privately) that there were players who suspected he may have done something illegal by playing early on that shot, but that's about it.

 

[PhattD]

While that could happen, I think it's pretty unlikely to happen over the course of a tournament. Also, this isn't a murder trial where you have to prove prove something beyond reasonable doubt. It's pretty much TD discretion.

I think if the player claims he threw from his lie correctly, then some other player finding a disc that they think was the disc he threw in a place that they don't think he threw from is insufficient for DQ. I think that in order to impose any penalty you have to determine what happened and it doesn't sound like the TD feels that he knows for sure what happened.

If you could determine what happened I would say that:
1) Mistakenly throwing from someone else's disc is a misplay.
2) Intentionally throwing from somewhere you know isn't your lie calls for DQ.

And no, you don't have to be absolutely sure. But accusing someone of cheating is a serious accusation and you better be sure you're right.

 

[Smigles]

Also, this isn't a murder trial where you have to prove prove something beyond reasonable doubt. It's pretty much TD discretion.

No, the TD can not add strokes as he pleases. It's definitly not at his discretion.

Where did you get that from??

 

[JC17393]

No, the TD can not add strokes as he pleases. It's definitly not at his discretion.

Where did you get that from??

I think he means it's the TD's judgment to make whether a violation occurred and a penalty is warranted, and that there is no specific standard of evidence that must be met for him to act. He is the final authority on rules calls at a tournament, and if he feels there was a rules violation he can assess penalties ("add strokes") as he sees fit.

 

[ejvogie]

But doesn't all benefit go to the player? Yeah, it sounds shady to all of us, but if it can't be proven, this is all moot.

 

[JoakimBL]

JC is absolutely right on what I meant by TD discretion. And sure, if the TD has doubts about why happens, benefit goes to the player. I don't think a TD would DQ a player without feeling confident that the player cheated.
In any real world scenario, what I posted for the TD to find out what happened wouldn't occur. In reality what would happen is likely that the TD would warn the player to wait his turn, and also the rest of the group to pay better attention. That is if the TD is on his game, and have time to go into it.