Rick’s super simple 500’ throw

[SocraDeez]

Ricky gets a huge ejection multiplier in his extension. Makes it looks so casual because it all accelerates in the last 2-3 frames.

Pretty cool image. Thanks for creating/ sharing.

Agree that a big part of the casual facade of the Pro Throw comes from good sequence, which makes the arm (shoulder-upper arm-lower arm-wrist-fingies) appear like it's moving through water compared to amateur players at similar parts of their throw.

Disagree - and you did not say this - that tip of the whip or snap or hand lever multiplier or what have you is more significant to total system output than initial input force. Not directed at you at all, and love when you're commenting. This has just been a popular sentiment around these parts of late.

Compound pendulums and chaos theory go hand in hand. Complex/ dynamic systems - like the disc golf throw - are most sensitive to initial inputs.

and why it's so important to move slow enough through the motion that you can maintain control of the disc through the redirection acceleration.

It's probably a bit of both, but I think that this "slow motion" thing we're talking about is less about being able to maintain control of the disc through redirection and more about creating a proper compound pendulum system.

 

[RowingBoats]

Disagree - and you did not say this - that tip of the whip or snap or hand lever multiplier or what have you is more significant to total system output than initial input force. Not directed at you at all, and love when you're commenting. This has just been a popular sentiment around these parts of late.

I'm not sure I follow this. The final acceleration is definitely a huge component of throwing far. Now, it is true that generating this acceleration correctly relies on upstream momentum, but I would definitely make the argument that messing up the final lever is far more detrimental to distance than not having perfectly ideal mechanics through the entire swing.

 

[sidewinder22]

The only person I hear invoked specifically on the distance a la spin speed and velocity argument that makes me pause is GG. The argument there is that he can throw understable plastic so far because of the spin he delivers on the disc to stabilize the HSS portion of the flight, which is how he gets 600-650' at ~74mph ejection speed (which is obviously still very high - people like Barela or Eagle tend to mash like 80mph to hit that range albeit with more OS plastic). I'm not entirely convinced the spin argument is the answer without data. I think it's consistent with what you say here in the sense that GG is optimizing the stable flight path for US plastic. But I still don't know what to think about it so thought I'd raise it so you and others can chime in.



That is bonkers. When I load my drive leg properly, sometimes I feel like I'm up on my tippy toes, but on camera my heels are basically hugging the ground.

Data would certainly help with speculation. Coach Chris Taylor got real data on spin rates from the 3D study with many top throwers and confirmed to me that spin is highly over-rated with distance.

GG throws better distance lines than most. He also doesn't really curl his wrist, he mostly keeps it straight and twists the arm more. He gets more elbow bend/extension(lower arm radial acceleration) than most and creates the biggest possible moment arm/lever with his body at release with the wide shoulder angle. The byproduct of that in theory should also translate to spin.

 

[Brychanus]

Pretty cool image. Thanks for creating/ sharing.

Agree that a big part of the casual facade of the Pro Throw comes from good sequence, which makes the arm (shoulder-upper arm-lower arm-wrist-fingies) appear like it's moving through water compared to amateur players at similar parts of their throw.

Disagree - and you did not say this - that tip of the whip or snap or hand lever multiplier or what have you is more significant to total system output than initial input force. Not directed at you at all, and love when you're commenting. This has just been a popular sentiment around these parts of late.

Compound pendulums and chaos theory go hand in hand. Complex/ dynamic systems - like the disc golf throw - are most sensitive to initial inputs.

It's probably a bit of both, but I think that this "slow motion" thing we're talking about is less about being able to maintain control of the disc through redirection and more about creating a proper compound pendulum system.

I tend to think about it this way.

I'm not sure I follow this. The final acceleration is definitely a huge component of throwing far. Now, it is true that generating this acceleration correctly relies on upstream momentum, but I would definitely make the argument that messing up the final lever is far more detrimental to distance than not having perfectly ideal mechanics through the entire swing.

I think that what SocraDeez is saying explains the final acceleration when you abstract the system away from the details of the body. The body is the system that implements that action to a more or less ideal degree overall. You can move the system over larger ranges of motion and with greater degrees of input force. It is also true that breaking the pendulum near the end of the compound action, for one reason or another, is a serious problem for many players.

This goes back to the source of this initial thread talking about Ricky - Ricky generates a ton of initial force that can be hard to see until you're used to looking for it. Ricky is also very good at maximizing the force transfer with his form. His form is one big efficient compound pendulum system from beginning to end, and what looks easy and effortless involves all the actions working well together, and as this thread reveals, it involves a larger range of motion and mechanics than it might first appear.

What still may interest people in any case is whether or not there's an additional eye toward achieving late acceleration specifically vs. letting it unfold in the way the system works overall. I feel like people talk about this in both ways from time to time and I'm never fully sure what we're saying. FWIW I feel like the more my form improves the late acceleration is just a fluid part of the overall action, and the better the upstream mechanics work, the less I'm seeking any additional effort to get a late burst. But that's not the same way everyone's talked about it and I do sometimes wonder if I'm missing something.

Am I tracking here?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I have no clue, and I'm not being sarcastic... NO CLUE how to quantify the benefit of late acceleration vs total system, but I will say that I see a consistent struggle in beginner -> advanced players of blowing off the disc prior to getting the pendulum boost.

Some of that is clearly timing / form - that makes it impossible to get to the right spots, some is strength in your hand.

The teachings of various coaches about spinning and/or driving the hips open or corking the off arm seem to exegerate the problem. Instead of allowing your momentum to carry through the late acceleration, driving the hips open/spinning etc blows your hand clean off the rim early unless you have vice like grip strength.

A smooth lateral motion allows for maintaining the hand on the outside, good momentum trapping and accuracy.

 

[RowingBoats]

I have no clue, and I'm not being sarcastic... NO CLUE how to quantify the benefit of late acceleration vs total system, but I will say that I see a consistent struggle in beginner -> advanced players of blowing off the disc prior to getting the pendulum boost.

Some of that is clearly timing / form - that makes it impossible to get to the right spots, some is strength in your hand.

The teachings of various coaches about spinning and/or driving the hips open or corking the off arm seem to exegerate the problem. Instead of allowing your momentum to carry through the late acceleration, driving the hips open/spinning etc blows your hand clean off the rim early unless you have vice like grip strength.

A smooth lateral motion allows for maintaining the hand on the outside, good momentum trapping and accuracy.

I agree with this. I am in no way trying to say that all of the body mechanics are not extremely important. You need all of these things to work together to throw far.

A common problem that I see though...is basically what you are describing. People develop ways of generating momentum, but are not channeling it into the place where it actually helps you throw far.

Someone throwing with mediocre lower body mechanics, but generating solid late acceleration/snap is much closer to 'getting it' than someone hyper-focused on lower body mechanics, and using those to accelerate FAR too early.

 

[seedlings]

Data would certainly help with speculation. Coach Chris Taylor got real data on spin rates from the 3D study with many top throwers and confirmed to me that spin is highly over-rated with distance.

GG throws better distance lines than most. He also doesn't really curl his wrist, he mostly keeps it straight and twists the arm more. He gets more elbow bend/extension(lower arm radial acceleration) than most and creates the biggest possible moment arm/lever with his body at release with the wide shoulder angle. The byproduct of that in theory should also translate to spin.

I am unskilled in post-msPaint photo editing. SW22, I know you have dozens of these shoulder-arm angle images. It would be really cool if all the GG images (from full backswing to release) could be overlapped with the shoulders as the fixed point.

 

[Sad2980]

This is a myth. A certain amount of spin relative to velocity is needed for stable flight paths, but extra spin does not create extra distance beyond that. Spin relative to velocity is sometimes called the advance ratio. Advance ratio threshold for stable flight paths - i.e. optimal spin rate relative to velocity - changes with disc geometry and probably angle of attack (nose angle

This may not be the best thread to discuss this, but I've been thinking about this concept a lot lately as a struggling Am.

At the pro level it seems that generating "a certain amount of spin for stable flight paths" is a basic component of everyone's throw. In this light it seems correct that whether or not Ricky generates extra spin is irrelevant and velocity is the most important factor. However, for us who are still learning form at a more basic level, it seems like an overlooked aspect of beginner form improvements.

It can be really difficult to recognize that a certain amount of spin needs to be generated on each throw and how to generate that spin while improving velocity. In this light, maybe we should discuss spin more often when teaching and learning the basics of a good swing.

 

[drk_evns]

It can be really difficult to recognize that a certain amount of spin needs to be generated on each throw and how to generate that spin while improving velocity. In this light, maybe we should discuss spin more often when teaching and learning the basics of a good swing.

I never think about spin.

 

[Sheep]

Spin is important.

Look at the stability differences in flight from a forehand to a backhand.

Spin helps control how the discs fade and move. So it is important to some extent in distance.

 

[timothy42b]

I'm not sure I follow this. The final acceleration is definitely a huge component of throwing far. Now, it is true that generating this acceleration correctly relies on upstream momentum, but I would definitely make the argument that messing up the final lever is far more detrimental to distance than not having perfectly ideal mechanics through the entire swing.

Kinematic chain vs final ejection is definitely confusing, especially if you read some of the old stuff.

Here's Blake T:

-most body motions are over-rated. i've found a 20 degree body rotation with no reach back can still yield a 275'+ throw with a small arm twitch and using no leg power. increasing the body rotation on reach back to 90 degrees seems to add about 40' (~15%). adding 18"+ of reach back seems to add about 25' (~9%). adding a full run up adds about 40' (~15%). those three things together are noticeable but if you work from a 275' baseline with a midrange disc, a full body rotation, full reach back, and utilizing the legs are responsible for roughly 27.6% of the throw. read as: about 10" of motion mainly focusing on the wrist, hand, and fingers is roughly 72.4% of the throw.

I did Beto daily for three weeks in August trying to understand. But if you watch Dan do his drill, his trail leg comes up to his waist and his followthrough is a helicopter spin finish, so there is more body dynamics in it than it would seem.

 

[RowingBoats]

Kinematic chain vs final ejection is definitely confusing, especially if you read some of the old stuff.

Here's Blake T:


I did Beto daily for three weeks in August trying to understand. But if you watch Dan do his drill, his trail leg comes up to his waist and his followthrough is a helicopter spin finish, so there is more body dynamics in it than it would seem.

The only thing I am trying to say is that, personally, conceptualizing the 'hit' as the goal of the swing helps me tie everything prior to that together.

Trying to learn the swing by thinking about all of the upstream momentum being caused by 'positions' was a big wrong turn for me. Focusing on generating late snap caused me to start having better full body mechanics, intuitively.


I might word this in a confusing way, but my point is certainly not to divide the swing into two camps lol.

 

[Sard0nyx]

The only thing I am trying to say is that, personally, conceptualizing the 'hit' as the goal of the swing helps me tie everything prior to that together.

Trying to learn the swing by thinking about all of the upstream momentum being caused by 'positions' was a big wrong turn for me. Focusing on generating late snap caused me to start having better full body mechanics, intuitively.


I might word this in a confusing way, but my point is certainly not to divide the swing into two camps lol.

I think what makes the disc golf throw confusing is that both camps can throw up to or even past 400'. It really takes an understanding of both to hit the elite levels of distance. This kind of undertaking is really not for most people, so most will settle for their 400' throws.

 

[RowingBoats]

I think what makes the disc golf throw confusing is that both camps can throw up to or even past 400'. It really takes an understanding of both to hit the elite levels of distance. This kind of undertaking is really not for most people, so most will settle for their 400' throws.

400' is a long toss if its a legit, flat ground golf shot, and this is the only kind of shot that I personally feel one should claim as their distance. I don't think it can be accomplished without a solid, well-rounded swing that is at least getting a reasonable hit/snap as well.

Most people at a local league I go to would definitely settle for this type of shot, and lots of them are no where close. Just based on the nature of lots of questions asked here, Id wager that most people visiting this forum also don't have 400' of consistent, useful distance.

A lot of the things I say are aimed at those people. I don't have anything to say beyond that kind of distance because I can't throw much farther than that lol. I do know that the game became a lot more fun once I had a fundamental grasp of a couple of concepts, most of my statements are simply trying to explain how I personally got over this hump.

 

[sidewinder22]

Kinematic chain vs final ejection is definitely confusing, especially if you read some of the old stuff.

Here's Blake T:


I did Beto daily for three weeks in August trying to understand. But if you watch Dan do his drill, his trail leg comes up to his waist and his followthrough is a helicopter spin finish, so there is more body dynamics in it than it would seem.

I never got the Beto drill until I understood the shift from behind. That is where I disagree with Blake, but otherwise I agree it only has to be a small motion, but it has to be the correct motion pattern.

 

[RowingBoats]

I never got the Beto drill until I understood the shift from behind. That is where I disagree with Blake, but otherwise I agree it only has to be a small motion, but it has to be the correct motion pattern.

I don't think I will ever be able to decide if its the best drill, or the worst drill lol.

I sympathize with Dan for creating it though. I get why it seems helpful to someone who already 'gets' it. I feel like Blake's overall mission was pretty similar as well.

You are totally correct that there is a required motion pattern, I just think different brains wrap that pattern up in unique ways. A lot of us are saying the same thing, with different emphasis, in my opinion.

 

[Brychanus]

400' is a long toss if its a legit, flat ground golf shot, and this is the only kind of shot that I personally feel one should claim as their distance. I don't think it can be accomplished without a solid, well-rounded swing that is at least getting a reasonable hit/snap as well.

Most people at a local league I go to would definitely settle for this type of shot, and lots of them are no where close. Just based on the nature of lots of questions asked here, Id wager that most people visiting this forum also don't have 400' of consistent, useful distance.

A lot of the things I say are aimed at those people. I don't have anything to say beyond that kind of distance because I can't throw much farther than that lol. I do know that the game became a lot more fun once I had a fundamental grasp of a couple of concepts, most of my statements are simply trying to explain how I personally got over this hump.

It's hard to tell what was most responsible for the distance each time in hindsight, but I marched up to the ~400'-neutral-flat-with-a-DD range at least 3 different times in the past year, then we discovered something deeply broken in my form, then I kept grinding and marching on again. The interesting thing is that what each swing had in common was a loose, springy, quick dynamic. But eventually something would start to hurt, I had problems with consistency, and it bothered me that I knew I could throw farther with better mechanics if I just slowed down and became more patient before speeding up again.

This is why I think it's important for people to pick goals. Mine became to throw with a mechanically sound, safe swing that also happens to help me throw farther with less effort. I also want to be throwing for a long time. But I've had to be willing to initially lose some distance several times when breaking it down and building back up again. I imagine that cycle will continue to some extent for a while and it looks like that's the case for many players.

And the forces involved in "the good swing" are no joke.

 

[RowingBoats]

It's hard to tell what was most responsible for the distance each time in hindsight, but I marched up to the ~400'-neutral-flat-with-a-DD range at least 3 different times in the past year, then we discovered something deeply broken in my form, then I kept grinding and marching on again. The interesting thing is that what each swing had in common was a loose, springy, quick dynamic. But eventually something would start to hurt, I had problems with consistency, and it bothered me that I knew I could throw farther with better mechanics if I just slowed down and became more patient before speeding up again.

This is why I think it's important for people to pick goals. Mine became to throw with a mechanically sound, safe swing that also happens to help me throw farther with less effort. I also want to be throwing for a long time. But I've had to be willing to initially lose some distance several times when breaking it down and building back up again. I imagine that cycle will continue to some extent for a while and it looks like that's the case for many players.

And the forces involved in "the good swing" are no joke.

For sure. I'm not saying it takes perfect form to throw 400', but some things have to be going right to do it. Even just 400' of 'wherever the eff it goes on whatever line' takes some power.

A 400' shot on a deliberate golf line that lands accurately in the fairway in an actual round? That implies a whole heck of a lot going right. When I look at people playing around me, that is certainly not what the average person is pulling off.

I guess I shouldn't read too much into the 'internet distance' discussions, because people are probably talking about wildly different versions of a 400' throw lol.

 

[Brychanus]

For sure. I'm not saying it takes perfect form to throw 400', but some things have to be going right to do it. Even just 400' of 'wherever the eff it goes on whatever line' takes some power.

A 400' shot on a deliberate golf line that lands accurately in the fairway in an actual round? That implies a whole heck of a lot going right. When I look at people playing around me, that is certainly not what the average person is pulling off.

I guess I shouldn't read too much into the 'internet distance' discussions, because people are probably talking about wildly different versions of a 400' throw lol.

Totally. I don't count them personally unless they're intentional hyzerflip lines because that's where I always seem to find my low effort power stroke and since I'm obsessive I like having a standard yardstick. When I throw farther wildly it kinda feels like I'm kidding myself (just me personally). I've had some very long unintended rollers that were inspirational, but then I'm like "well yeah, but the target was over there..."

 

[RowingBoats]

Totally. I don't count them personally unless they're intentional hyzerflip lines because that's where I always seem to find my low effort power stroke and since I'm obsessive I like having a standard yardstick. When I throw farther wildly it kinda feels like I'm kidding myself (just me personally). I've had some very long unintended rollers that were inspirational, but then I'm like "well yeah, but the target was over there..."

Yar.

Ugh I'm not trying to be the distance police and if I came across that way to anyone I apologize.

This little offshoot of discussion was just based on the comment about 400' being generated from two qualitatively different swings, and that just isn't something in the actual world of humans throwing plastic that I observe.

That same comment made about 250', sure. There are some truly insane ways to throw a disc 250', even with accuracy.

The people I see throwing 400', accurately, on the desired angle though, they have a lot of similarity in their forms. Even sitting here watching Worlds lol...that kind of shot is sick at ANY level of play and is not trivial.