Rocking the Hips

[sidewinder22]

How does the core/shoulder power the throw? Is it through rotation of the upper half? Or is it getting the core out front being pulled by the weight?

 

[Brenzo44]

This is actually kind of crazy. You wouldn't think immediately that a movement which everyone harps on about the legs being the majority of it would so heavily involve the spine/back.

But I can ACTUALLY feel it. I just stood up and did a sort of One Leg Drill and just felt which parts of my body actually worked to make that happen. Sure enough, it was the lower back acting on the spine.

So now I raise the question: are lower-back (and general back/core) exercises the key to eking out that extra power and preventing injury?

 

[sidewinder22]

This is actually kind of crazy. You wouldn't think immediately that a movement which everyone harps on about the legs being the majority of it would so heavily involve the spine/back.

But I can ACTUALLY feel it. I just stood up and did a sort of One Leg Drill and just felt which parts of my body actually worked to make that happen. Sure enough, it was the lower back acting on the spine.

So now I raise the question: are lower-back (and general back/core) exercises the key to eking out that extra power and preventing injury?

"Engage or Fire the Hips" makes me cringe every time I hear it.

Proper technique and context first. The glutes stabilize the hips and the lats stabilize the shoulders.

 

[RocHucker]

The core powers the swing. Weightshift and lag/inertia stretches the core...
...The purpose of a run-up is to increase the torso stretch

1. By "torso stretch", do you mean the rotational difference between the shoulders and the hips?

2. When you say "the core powers the swing", are you saying that the core muscles, in aggregate, are functionally a rotational spring that gets wound during the backswing and then unwinds to sling the disc? And the primary purpose of the run-up and weightshift is to coil that rotational spring between the hips and shoulders?

3. Should I be clenching the heck out of my abs/core muscles after my left foot hits the ground (2nd to last step), so that the backswing builds tension in my "rotational spring"? Up to this point I've been pretty loose in the core, in order to facilitate more coiling of my shoulders relative to my hips, and in order to prevent any muscle tension from subconsciously propagating out to my arm. But it sounds like this looseness is stopping me from properly storing tension in my "spring"?

4. I had previously thought that the brace should be *adding* power to the swing by converting linear momentum into rotational acceleration (kinda like if you were sliding forward on ice and your right hip hit something, causing you to spin out). Is there nothing of this sort happening?

5. Rather than saying what I said in #4, would it be more accurate to say that all of the energy that we're gaining from our disc golf run-up has already been stored in our core muscles by the time the brace happens, and the brace is just giving our wound-up core muscles an anchor to pull against? (the anchor being the front glute, per the first sentence of the quote below?)

Stand on front leg only and feel how your front glute pulls everything else thru for a BH throw. The rearside gets pulled thru by the frontside into the finish.

6. Does the second sentence of the quote above imply that the rear side is passive, or merely along for the ride?

7. I watched your double dragon video. Is the takeaway from the can-can drill that our hips should start their forward rotation because they are pulled by the weight of our front leg swinging forwards? I thought that this was "shifting in front", which is bad? :doh: very confused

Sorry for the deluge of questions. I'm reevaluating my entire concept of how we power the throw here

 

[Brychanus]

(Stack of questions 1-7)

I'll try some of these:

1. Kind of. But it's really the initial weight shift from the drive step to the plant step that causes the separation against the lagged disc. We're working on this right now in my Form critique thread & here I link the thread with the excellent Shawn Clement vid in the first post.

2. You are loading/unloading the oblique slings in a double helix around the body.

3. Please don't "clench." It should be a consequence of posture/balance/sequencing/weight shift heading into the plant. Your backswing is braced against the drive (rear) leg & your swing is braced against the plant (front) leg. If you do that correctly it will load/unload the core/slings. See also "myotatic reflex". If you muscle up/rush things, you can't naturally stretch muscles with the right mechanics, and you lose a ton of power in the throw.

4. I'm interested in what others say, but off the cuff I think the brace is transiently trapping momentum & transferring force up thru the chain from the ground. The rotation is a consequence of the posture/balance/sequencing entering the plant/brace. "Adding" is where I might disagree - it's just facilitating the conversion of linear force to rotation, and transmitting force up from the ground. Some people characterize this part of form as a battle against losing force via breaks in the kinematic chain as you enter the plant/swing.

5. That seems closer, but I'm not sure I'd say "all" without further thought. Minimally you're also loading/compressing & decompressing against the plant leg to get a "pump" against the ground (adding more force).

6. I tend to follow the advice to avoid "active/passive" language because it tends to mislead people to think the wrong things. Muscles are contracting & relaxing in a fluid sequence. The rear side gets pulled through since it's connected to the front side, which is transferring ground force from the plant leg/swinging.

7. Will let the man explain for himself!

I like questions like this. Sometimes you just need to do the drills/get coached, but these conversations are always enlightening and can help things "click"!

And don't be surprised if you re-evaluate the concepts over and over - that's healthy. It's a pretty complex move.

 

[RocHucker]

Thanks for offering your insights! I'm sure there's a lot more in your post for me to digest, and I'm curious to hear some of SW22's feedback on the areas that you didn't answer as definitively, but there were a few parts of your response that instantly sparked some more questions for me.

3. Please don't "clench." It should be a consequence of posture/balance/sequencing/weight shift heading into the plant... If you do that correctly it will load/unload the core/slings. See also "myotatic reflex". If you muscle up/rush things, you can't naturally stretch muscles with the right mechanics, and you lose a ton of power in the throw.

So the correct thing to do is somewhere between "clench" and "be really loose in your core muscles in order to allow your torso to twist to more or less its skeletal limit"? Maybe this is a bogus question, but could you give an estimate of where on that continuum I should be aiming for? e.g. 60% towards the "clenched" level of tightness?

Your backswing is braced against the drive (rear) leg & your swing is braced against the plant (front) leg.

This language of "braced" is very frequently used by people who seem to know what they're talking about, and it frustrates me to no end that I can't seem to wrap my thick head around what it means. Do you know of any way to elaborate or perhaps an alternate way to communicate it that might help this concept click? Was there any truth to my "gliding on ice then hitting something" metaphor?
When I read your quote above, I picture that the "backswing braced against the rear leg" means that as I turn my torso back in the backswing, my left leg prevents my left hip from moving back, and therefore any turning back must be my right hip swiveling back around my left hip. This is what the upwards kick of the right leg feels like in the Double Dragon Can-Can drill.
Then when I read your quote "your swing is braced against the plant leg", I picture that the opposite is happening. The right leg prevents the right hip from coming forward any further, so the momentum of the left side is forced to swivel around the right hip as it continues forward. My difficulty in implementing this has been that, if I plant my right foot in a closed position, it feels like I would blow out my right knee if I allow the momentum of the left side to swivel through. So I assume that my mental picture is fundamentally flawed.

4. I'm interested in what others say, but off the cuff I think the brace is transiently trapping momentum & transferring force up thru the chain from the ground.

Where is the trapped momentum going? It can't simply disappear (due to conservation of energy), so the linear momentum of the whole body must be transferred *somewhere*, and maybe knowing exactly where this is would be enlightening for me.
Does the momentum (i.e. "moving weight") of the body stay to the left side of the brace, causing the body's center to continue forward around the right side brace? Or should the lower body feel like it is primarily resisting through the brace (not rotating around the brace), and therefore all of the trapped momentum is purely being directed towards rotation of the upper body?

In order for the latter to be true, the right side of the upper body must have more rotational inertia than the left side. In this case, since the right and left sides weigh the same amount (except for the disc in the right hand), the right side must be somehow further off of the axis of rotation than the left side... is this why it is beneficial to get the left arm tight to the body, or even reach across the midline (as in the beginning of the swim move)?

I've been trying for a long time to figure out how to redirect linear momentum into rotational momentum, but SW22's comments about "the core powering the throw" and "the left hip not needing to come through" are making me think that that frame of thinking is fundamentally wrong.

My old way of thinking: Purpose of brace is to turn body's linear momentum into rotational momentum by applying a linear resistive force that is offset from the throw's axis of rotation.

New way of thinking that I'm asking about: Purpose of the brace is unrelated to turning linear momentum into rotational momentum. In fact, linear momentum is NOT translated directly into rotational momentum at all. Instead, linear momentum is somehow used to store energy in our core muscles by pre-stretching them, and then the contracting or unstretching of these core muscles is used rotate the right shoulder about the axis of rotation. The left side is simply dragged along by the right shoulder.

And don't be surprised if you re-evaluate the concepts over and over - that's healthy. It's a pretty complex move.

I'm doing this pretty continually haha

 

[RocHucker]

Side note: I've always tried to go through the motions of the end of the stride/reachback by starting with my feet at roughly shoulder width and then stepping towards the target with my right foot as I go deeper into the backswing. This has resulted in the feeling of me pushing my right foot out towards the target.
In contrast, the can-can drill has created the feeling of the right leg *swinging* to the target instead of pushing to the target. In order to achieve this, I need to get my butt ahead of *both* of my feet as I start the final stride, and then the right foot pendulums out from behind my hip to in front of my hip. Looking back at some professional slomos, I think I see this action that I'd missed before. I was never achieving this in my slomo mimics because this "butt in front of *both* feet" position is one that would be totally out of balance if I tried to do it in slow motion.
Am I on the right track with this tiny portion of the throw?

 

[bryantlikes]

Not Losing Power

New way of thinking that I'm asking about: Purpose of the brace is unrelated to turning linear momentum into rotational momentum. In fact, linear momentum is NOT translated directly into rotational momentum at all. Instead, linear momentum is somehow used to store energy in our core muscles by pre-stretching them, and then the contracting or unstretching of these core muscles is used rotate the right shoulder about the axis of rotation. The left side is simply dragged along by the right shoulder.

I'm still a newbie at this and building my form, but I tend to think of the brace as being the fulcrum of the swing. If the fulcrum/brace isn't strong then you're leaking power.

Recently came across this video by Tristan Tanner which he explains that the main thing to work on isn't trying to gain energy but not losing energy in your throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. By "torso stretch", do you mean the rotational difference between the shoulders and the hips?

2. When you say "the core powers the swing", are you saying that the core muscles, in aggregate, are functionally a rotational spring that gets wound during the backswing and then unwinds to sling the disc? And the primary purpose of the run-up and weightshift is to coil that rotational spring between the hips and shoulders?

3. Should I be clenching the heck out of my abs/core muscles after my left foot hits the ground (2nd to last step), so that the backswing builds tension in my "rotational spring"? Up to this point I've been pretty loose in the core, in order to facilitate more coiling of my shoulders relative to my hips, and in order to prevent any muscle tension from subconsciously propagating out to my arm. But it sounds like this looseness is stopping me from properly storing tension in my "spring"?

4. I had previously thought that the brace should be *adding* power to the swing by converting linear momentum into rotational acceleration (kinda like if you were sliding forward on ice and your right hip hit something, causing you to spin out). Is there nothing of this sort happening?

5. Rather than saying what I said in #4, would it be more accurate to say that all of the energy that we're gaining from our disc golf run-up has already been stored in our core muscles by the time the brace happens, and the brace is just giving our wound-up core muscles an anchor to pull against? (the anchor being the front glute, per the first sentence of the quote below?)


6. Does the second sentence of the quote above imply that the rear side is passive, or merely along for the ride?

7. I watched your double dragon video. Is the takeaway from the can-can drill that our hips should start their forward rotation because they are pulled by the weight of our front leg swinging forwards? I thought that this was "shifting in front", which is bad? :doh: very confused

Sorry for the deluge of questions. I'm reevaluating my entire concept of how we power the throw here

Brychanus answered pretty well.

1-2. Tensegrity - 3D oblique sling plane is a much better viewpoint, than the 2D rotational x-factor.

3. No. You should be loose in backswing - resisting the myotatic reflex.

4. Kind of.

5. Kind of, but it's not just an anchor.

6. Again I do not like active vs passive. Is one side of your body active or passive when you walk or run?

7. The takeaway is to learn uninhibited motion and stop thinking. It is not "shifting from in front" which happens from the rearside firing or rotating everything open.

 

[Brychanus]

7. The takeaway is to learn uninhibited motion and stop thinking.

I wanted to echo that this is what headcases like me (and I think a lot of us) struggle with.

Watch any top thrower and they have a fluid, effortless-looking, fast, and well-balanced throw. How did they get there?

When I watch my 7-month old, I'm reminded at just how hard walking is at first. No motor learning scientist I know would argue that a baby has a "master theory" of walking before learning it. You can first see the baby's almost random movements. Then they might get their hands under them, but tip over. They might get into downward dog position, get a knee under themselves on the ground, do the worm backwards, roll over sideways, etc. etc... until that day they're starting to crawl. They're learning to sit up and stabilize and they're trying and failing and trying again. They learn to stand unassisted only after a lot of help and feedback from the environment. Even for fast learners, it takes months and months of constant challenge & development & trial and failure. Some of them skip certain stages (some even skip crawling and go right to walking!), take steps forward and back, and so on. You can help them with modeling and support and shaping motions for them. That's what DG drills are for.

I do drills pretty much every day, and I seek feedback constantly (thanks again, SW & others out there!). Sometimes you pick things up quickly and can keep your foot on the gas. Other times, you need to slow down and massage something in.

So many people get kind of bound up and tight in small ranges of high-effort motion and stuck there for a long time/forever. If you can't get a full range of motion, it's very hard to hang additional tweaks/improve smaller mechanics to benefit your throw.

It's like helping the baby learn to walk much faster than a random search.

 

[timothy42b]

I'll try some of these:

4. I'm interested in what others say, but off the cuff I think the brace is transiently trapping momentum & transferring force up thru the chain from the ground. The rotation is a consequence of the posture/balance/sequencing entering the plant/brace. "Adding" is where I might disagree - it's just facilitating the conversion of linear force to rotation, and transmitting force up from the ground.

I have assumed that this was essentially the common interpretation. The brace causes rotation by applying a force off center from the direction of motion of the center of inertia. For a graphic test run your skateboard into a curb, I'm pretty sure you will rotate downward and face plant. I locked my front wheel on a ten speed once braking too hard and yup, face planted amazingly quickly.

But Dr Kwon's insistence that you must kick the plant leg, and his force analysis of the pelvic rotation suggests that the "brace" actively applies a torque that causes rotation.

Pet peeve of mine, and I know it's a nitpick, but only forces can cause motion or rotation. Momentum can't; it's just a shortcut to calculating how much. I think the way we use the term causes confusion.

 

[Brychanus]

That's helpful. I might distinguish the brace from the plant leg pogo action/kick though. I usually think of the "brace" as that abstract and transient structure from the ground up that forms across the body and that you swing against/behind. The plant leg is also pumping against the ground, which adds force like I think you/Dr. Kwon are saying.

 

[timothy42b]

That's helpful. I might distinguish the brace from the plant leg pogo action/kick though. I usually think of the "brace" as that abstract and transient structure from the ground up that forms across the body and that you swing against/behind. The plant leg is also pumping against the ground, which adds force like I think you/Dr. Kwon are saying.

I guess it must be a bit of both, or lateral motion wouldn't be so helpful?
I have one hole on my regular course where I frequently throw my second shot from the plant leg with the trail leg dangling because there's no where to put it (because my drive was bad). I sometimes get a decent throw with the pogo alone, there's not really a brace with no forward motion possible.

Time to review those "what causes rotation" videos.

 

[RocHucker]

Theory on powering the hips

Ok, so after watching a lot of youtube videos and videos of myself, trying new throw feelings, and repeating that process, I think I'm finally onto a better swing-thought/feeling. Sharing it here to hopefully get confirmation from someone who knows what they're talking about, and if I'm actually onto something then hopefully it can help someone who is stuck at a similar mental block to what I've been trying to break through for a while now.

Check out the attached image. It shows Paul McBeth and Drew Sorenson (MLB pitcher), both at the moment that their plant foot touches the ground and at the moment that their hips have rotated to their release orientation. In this particular shot, McBeth is throwing a relatively flat shot on a relatively line-drive trajectory. He's throwing a buzzz about 430ft here. I used the baseball pitcher as a comparison because the hip action is much more obvious there for a few reasons:
1) They stride directly at the target, as opposed to disc golfers who stride towards 10:30 or 11:00 (if target is at 12:00)
2) The whole hip action is facing a bit more target-ward, because they're throwing with their trailing arm instead of their leading arm (a disc-golf backhand throws with leading arm).
3) Their swing planes don't get complicated by hyzer angles or low/high release trajectories.

However, these differences aside, you can see a pretty clear parallel between McBeth and Sorenson.
A) Both of them are striding with their butts down in a relatively deep squat position so that their plant-leg femurs are out ahead of their right hip and pointing significantly horizontally in towards the hip. This horizontal orientation of the femur allows the femur to push horizontally on the hip socket, causing horizontal rotation of the hips. In contrast, I've always been lazy and kept my legs relatively straight, which keeps my lead leg femur relatively vertical and under my hip. A femur that is vertical and under my hip can only really push vertically up at my hip, which will keep my butt off the ground but won't induce any rotation in my hips.
B) Both of them have their lead leg swung pretty wide as they are planting their plant foot. If you drew a line from their left hip socket to their right hip socket, their lead femur would almost be on that line. This gives the hips plenty of space to rotate forwards until the lead femur is essentially sticking straight out in front of the lead hip socket. In contrast, I had previously not swung my lead leg out very wide, so my hips had no room to rotate.

To achieve the proper feeling, squat low. Like really low, so your thighs are almost parallel to the ground. If you're used to just walking on top of straight legs, then even achieving Paul's normal 45 degree angle between his thigh and the ground will *feel* like you're squatting ridiculously low. Then, swing your right leg out to your right as if it's a gate and you're hinging it out to the right. Hinge it all the way out to the right until you could basically draw a straight line through both of your hip sockets and your right knee. Again, if you're used to doing things the wrong way then this will feel super unnatural. Then, if you shift your weight linearly on that straight line and firmly plant your right foot while keeping your hips loose, your momentum should naturally rotate your hips forward into a more naturally closed position. The more momentum you bring into the plant and the firmer or more sudden you make your plant, the faster your hips will rotate.

Everything above the hips is just kinda along for the ride. Don't think about it too much during this drill.

It is critical that throughout this whole process you remain in the deep squat, which will feel totally unnatural if you're not used to it. And if you're like me, then it will probably make you realize that your legs are in worse shape than you thought they were, and you'll realize yet again that this whole disc golf thing is a much more athletic motion than you'd originally assumed.

If I'm off base somehow, then tell me how. But this is the first time that I've really felt how I could translate the momentum of my run-up into some sort of body rotation that I could use to power a throw. And this deep of a squat may be an exaggeration of the actual throw motion, or the same might be said of getting the lead femur all the way out in front like that, but sometimes an exaggeration is needed to feel the principles at work.

thoughts?

 

[RocHucker]

Incidentally, if a disc golfer is throwing on a hyzer, then this hip action gets slanted in the hyzer direction so that it no longer is purely in the horizontal plane. There will be vertical elements involved in lining the hips up before the plant and then the hips swinging through on the hyzer plane, so it will look like the "up, down, up" "rocking of the hips" that started this whole thread.

 

[sidewinder22]

Kind of sounds like Kick the Can Drill. I wouldn't recommend remaining in a squatted position though. A pitcher can't really wind up or leg kick while remaining squatted. Technically it's a hip hinge(hammy/glute) rather than a squat(quad/knee) motion pattern.

 

[RocHucker]

Noted about the hip hinge vs squat distinction.
Would you say that I'm on the right track with the emphasis on getting the lead leg to swing wide of the hips before the plant? Both to create horizontal leverage of the right femur against the right hip socket, and to give the hips room to rotate?
Whether as a part of the ground-up power chain or as more of a result of other parts of the throw, all big throwers seem to get a noticeable hip turn. As far as I can tell, the hips either have to rotate above the right femur (which I'm currently thinking would be wrong), or moreso into the right femur from behind (like a baseball pitcher), which would require that hip to be open to begin with.

 

[sidewinder22]

Noted about the hip hinge vs squat distinction.
Would you say that I'm on the right track with the emphasis on getting the lead leg to swing wide of the hips before the plant? Both to create horizontal leverage of the right femur against the right hip socket, and to give the hips room to rotate?
Whether as a part of the ground-up power chain or as more of a result of other parts of the throw, all big throwers seem to get a noticeable hip turn. As far as I can tell, the hips either have to rotate above the right femur (which I'm currently thinking would be wrong), or moreso into the right femur from behind (like a baseball pitcher), which would require that hip to be open to begin with.

 

[SocraDeez]

To achieve the proper feeling, squat low. Like really low, so your thighs are almost parallel to the ground. If you're used to just walking on top of straight legs, then even achieving Paul's normal 45 degree angle between his thigh and the ground will *feel* like you're squatting ridiculously low.

Yo this is actually a brilliant drill idea. Try throwing from a squatty position. Like hands even with your knees. Get squatted and throw baby. It's almost impossible to spin and throw like this. It's almost impossible to tilt the wrong way. All kinds of great feedback from this position.

This is like disc golf's version of the speed/ sprint drill "Squatty Run", which is a response to the conventional running wisdom of "get tall":

Check it out: https://www.stack.com/a/the-squatty-run-the-weird-drill-that-changes-how-you-sprint-for-the-better/

 

[SocraDeez]

It's almost impossible to tilt the wrong way. All kinds of great feedback from this position.

Forgot that not all "squats" are created equal:

Make sure your spine is more neutral/flexed and not extended if you try to do this. You want neutral to posterior pelvic tilt. Your body should want to fall forward in front of it when you are in the right squatted position into the ball of your foot with heels slightly off the ground. Like a sprinter on the blocks. Think hammies and glute activation not quads.

You don't want S posture/ funky chicken as SW22 has called it. This isn't a weight lifting exercise.