Tips for keeping the hips closed

Sad2980

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The title says it all! I'm looking for tips to keep the hips closed until the right time.

I've noticed myself and a lot of ams open too soon and cook the throw. I try to move laterally, try to plant first, and try to swing the arm but I still have a chronic problem of opening too soon, so I thought I'd try to survey the dgcr community.

How do you keep your hips closed? What tips do you have for those of us who struggle? Is this even something we should be focused on?
 
In my experience learning here these are some of the big threats to closed hips. As I've learned it's not easy even if you learned how to "shift from behind" in some contexts:

1. You might be in power or horse-stance dynamic posture rather than Riding the bull - this tends to force one or both hips open as you transition leg to leg. Riding the bull properly puts the hip in position to be more naturally closed in transition while leveraging the ground (I know 'cuz I'm working on solving that year-old problem now).

2. Hershyzer 1 & 2 drills.

3. Swivel stairs properly "presetting" the booty toward the target (same concept in Hershyzer 1 & 2). Same applies to how you start moving into a standstill or x-step.

4. Be patient. Let the crush fully resolve and the plant leg resist the ground to lead the swing. Slow it down and exaggerate it so your body takes the hint.

If a hip opens/you shift from "in front", missing right (WTF Richard) is more likely. If they are closed in the right motion, early releases are more likely (due to increased acceleration).
 
1. You might be in power or horse-stance dynamic posture rather than Riding the bull - this tends to force one or both hips open as you transition leg to leg. Riding the bull properly puts the hip in position to be more naturally closed in transition while leveraging the ground (I know 'cuz I'm working on solving that year-old problem now).

Can you elaborate on what riding the bull is/feels like? I've read about this concept before but I don't think I understand the analogy.
 
One thing I have found is that you can try and focus on your hips and footwork all you want, but your actual ARM SWING is really going to dictate when and how your hips and body open up. I was working on this for months trying to correct rounding problems by focusing on my footwork and hips without much success but inadvertently improved on it by setting that aside and working on my arm swing.

What I found is that a rounding arm swing is really one of the major culprits of the hips opening up early. You can position your feet and have the perfect X step, but if your arm and disc are rounding out wide and the disc is far from your chest, your hips have no choice but to open up early.

I would instead focus on getting that arm swing/disc closer to your chest and getting that elbow to bend before straightening out and releasing the disc. What you'll notice is that by pulling the disc closer to your chest, it will automatically keep your hips closed longer because your entire body will stay sideways/closed longer instead of opening up and rounding out.
 
Can you elaborate on what riding the bull is/feels like? I've read about this concept before but I don't think I understand the analogy.

Here.

Can tell ya how it feels when I'm doing it right. My guess is SW might say something like "an effortless and abrupt weight shift."
 
Can you elaborate on what riding the bull is/feels like? I've read about this concept before but I don't think I understand the analogy.

I'm able to give you an answer now.

1. Learn (including getting critiqued) + do the drill. You may have mechanical or posture issues blocking the ideal action.

2. IMO It is good to first learn the lateral part of the shift he shows at the beginning without worrying about the swing.

3. You then need to add the correct counterrotation through the upper body that creates the Figure 8 action moving in both directions.

4. As an analogy, "Riding the Bull" is about how your body would move to stay on the ground and not fall while moving with fast shifts - like if a bull were trying to buck you. To me (martial arts & some boxing background) dynamically it feels similar to a boxing "bob and weave". It's a very athletic, fluid motion. The posture puts you in a position to absorb or dole out quicker, high-power movement. Riding the bull isn't exactly the same as any one boxing move, but the feel for the motion in a Figure 8 was noticeable to me.

Watch Ali. You can bob and weave standing tall. How's he moving like this? Hint: it's not pictured in this gif, and it's not about his hands on the ropes. Hint 2: Notice the taunting hip jiggle at the end.
dodge-intense.gif


You can also bob and weave low:
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And you can bob high to low and back again:
bob-and-weave.gif


It doesn't feel effortful to do this once you learn it. But the muscles & coordination these guys use to do this so well just happen to be the ones that get weak with deskbound life.



Relevant learning notes:
-I said three things that aren't about feel first because there are just too many things that "feel right" that are wrong. Sometimes the wrong move feels right because it's less effortful than what you did before, but is still not mechanically ideal. Usually the best move feels even more effortless than what you were doing before because it helps your body move more easily. This notion pretty much sums up a lot of form development overall.

-Ride the Bull is a pretty good example of an "effortless yet athletic" drill move IMO. The shift feels effortless. But SW warned me that it might make me sore overdoing it. Even when I was doing it wrong (moving and landing out of posture & loading up my quads too much) it was tiring out the glutes/hamstrings/support muscles. Once I started to get deeper and more fluid it made it very clear that I still had physical weakness in those areas that were contributing to my posture issues in my drills and throws. The good news is that as a standalone drill it's also a great exercise! But remember to take breaks as necessary.

-Remember that if the drill move is a big change, the permanent change in your real throw usually lags it by at least a few days after you fully mastered the move (often 2-3 weeks). I think it's normal that the move might tend to come and go in your real throws in the meantime. Since I record so much, I find it interesting to watch this process happen over and over again when I learn new moves.

-In the drill video (Turbo Encabulator) - and most of his videos - I think SW/seabas has very tight control over the movements. It was really hard for me to connect various parts of the motion together & the drill revealed several problems at once. I usually find that exaggerating the move, getting it critiqued/fixed, and then learning to shrink it down from the exaggeration is most effective. The RtB move was such a big difference for me that I even exaggerated certain things again away from the preferred move to check if I was actually on track before, and SW was able to point out what specifically was wrong again, which helped me understand what I should aim for in the drill.

-I also did Ride the Bull while making dinner and holding my daughter (25 lbs). Doing it with a bit of weight helped reinforce which motion pattern is effective and sturdy. Fun for the whole family! Don't worry, I did not sling her at the end.
 
I posted this a couple years ago over on the Kinetic Sequence thread.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

He has a good explanation of how correct body positions produce speed by limiting rotation to create automatic braking to allow arms and hands to accelerate. Also demonstrates why the tilted spiral is so effective/efficient for the throw because it limits rotation.

 
I don't think this has been mentioned yet but something I noticed and worth bringing up if this is right/discussion:

If you do your x step and then reach back with your arm, it is very easy to be in horse stance/open and end up twisted.

If you do your x step and then reach back by turning your left butt to face the target (butt wipe/loading from behind?) it is virtually impossible to plant open. You can try it for your self pantomining the steps.

Does that make sense? Is that the right "mental cue" for the reachback/butt whipe?
 
I don't think this has been mentioned yet but something I noticed and worth bringing up if this is right/discussion:

If you do your x step and then reach back with your arm, it is very easy to be in horse stance/open and end up twisted.

If you do your x step and then reach back by turning your left butt to face the target (butt wipe/loading from behind?) it is virtually impossible to plant open. You can try it for your self pantomining the steps.

Does that make sense? Is that the right "mental cue" for the reachback/butt whipe?

Interesting, I'll ponder this.
I've never tried the buttwhipe drill as I'm able to .. Well, I have really really good hip flex, so its not something I think about, i just think about getting my feet where I want them.

But this is more of a "how you load" thought.
Hopefully SW chimes in.
 
I don't think this has been mentioned yet but something I noticed and worth bringing up if this is right/discussion:

If you do your x step and then reach back with your arm, it is very easy to be in horse stance/open and end up twisted.

If you do your x step and then reach back by turning your left butt to face the target (butt wipe/loading from behind?) it is virtually impossible to plant open. You can try it for your self pantomining the steps.

Does that make sense? Is that the right "mental cue" for the reachback/butt whipe?

Unfortunately, I think it's still possible to plant open depending on the initial setup and posture heading into the plant.
 
Im glad this topic generated some discussion.

An understanding of posture and balance has recently clicked with me despite it being mentioned here frequently. Ive been trying to get more of a glide feeling during the xstep where my weight is centered on or just behind the plant foot during the xstep. Is this similar to what the ride the bull analogy is supposed to convey?

Ive also been focusing on keeping the hips lateral to the target and trying not to over rotate in the backswing. This helps me achieve a more coiled feeling and might be preventing me from opening too soon. I'm worried this might be misguided though. Should my hips be rotating much during my backswing or is it mostly a shoulder/torso rotation with a lateral hip move during the xstep? I have studied the hershyzer drill but it never really clicked with me. Seems I'm a little dense.
 
Im glad this topic generated some discussion.

An understanding of posture and balance has recently clicked with me despite it being mentioned here frequently. Ive been trying to get more of a glide feeling during the xstep where my weight is centered on or just behind the plant foot during the xstep. Is this similar to what the ride the bull analogy is supposed to convey?

Form critique is the best option here.

Words can be funky but I'll take a stab in general.

Many of us around here tend to think of the weight (your theoretical center of mass*) as flowing just ahead of your steps like it does when you're walking. It's always a fine line between being too ahead or behind of your strides. In that sense riding the bull is about letting your mass swing freely back and forth, but getting the hips closed and body compressed against the ground moving each way in balance. It's a whole-body drill and a lot can go wrong.

Think about the difference between trying to walk or run sideways, and trying to get in a posture to ram the door with your shoulder. There are many ways to walk sideways involving leaning and tilting and twisting yourself up but if you used them to run into the door, you would hurt yourself instead of the door. Think of an NFL defender going in for the hit from the side, but the runner gets inside his posture. The defender falls right down:

giphy.gif


There are far fewer ways to stride in that direction and ram down the door or tackle without hurting your body. This is one of the things a good x-step has in common with ramming down the door or riding a bull.

Oekt.gif


NoHelmetTacklebig.gif




If you have too much of your mass behind or tilting or twisting away from the door, you won't hit it as hard. You'll just bounce off the door:

derrick-henry.gif



If you bum rush the door head-first you might knock it down, but you might also get a concussion or some spinal damage.

EjWJ.gif


aaron-rodgers.gif




Ive also been focusing on keeping the hips lateral to the target and trying not to over rotate in the backswing. This helps me achieve a more coiled feeling and might be preventing me from opening too soon. I'm worried this might be misguided though. Should my hips be rotating much during my backswing or is it mostly a shoulder/torso rotation with a lateral hip move during the xstep? I have studied the hershyzer drill but it never really clicked with me. Seems I'm a little dense.

It ain't just you, I'm as dense as a neutron star.

Depends on what you mean. The hips rotate back against the rear leg closing off and creating tension against the ground. It's more like a lateral stride and compression against the ground. The size/distance the move covers varies a bit depending on the form & player's body & desired power etc.

FirsthandPettyDiamondbackrattlesnake-max-1mb.gif


*There's no real center of mass, but it's a useful way to ground a lot of swing concepts in ideas from physics.
 

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