slipping after putting

[dmoore1998]

I do think "spirit of the game" is the way to run casual leagues (frankly, half of people at the league I play in foot faults nearly every time putting in Circle 1...nobody cares...it's not egregious).

I don't think that's the way to handle professional endeavors though. There's way too much "casual league" going on at the professional levels of disc golf IMO.

All that said, I don't think that changes whether it's a penalty (or a foul, or against the rules, whatever you want to call it). Is it a foul? Yes. Are we calling you on it? No.

We're redoing tee boxes right now so "tees" are spray painted on the ground...is anyone going to get a penalty tonight if their foot goes past the paint? No. Do I expect professionals on a professional tour to be more precise with that stuff? Yeah, kinda.

 

[BillFleming]

This thread has gotten slightly off-topic with the discussion of "should rules be enforced strictly?". But it is a good conversation. A big example is the marking of a lie. I've seen people flip their disc to mark their lie. In casual or unsanctioned league, I won't call it, but I will let the player know it is against the rules. Majority of the time, the player says they didn't know it wasn't allowed, or they started playing when it was allowed and didn't realize the rule changed. But every so often, I get the 'the pros do it'. My answer was normally "no they don't"....but I have since found out that - yes they do, but not in tournaments. Watch the Jomez practice rounds....Nate Sexton is a prime example....he frequently flips his disc to mark his lie; but if you watch him in the actual tournament he won't do that. It's an example of "when to enforce a rule and when to let it go"; but at the same time, it can lead casual players to misunderstand the rule.

Most times, I will consider if the violation was intentional. Bump your marker while making a throw...I might point it out to you, but not call it. You step fully on your marker while making the throw....I'm calling it.

Some of the rules require an eagle eye to catch the violation. Jump putting....were both feet off the ground before the disc was released? Step putting - was the disc released before the player's foot landed in front of the lie? Those are just two examples where the rules are strict, but it is almost impossible to catch the violation.

Like Nikko's OB/Inbounds issue....Ricky pushed the disc down...it is feasible the disc was inbounds and Ricky's push made it go OB. I don't like the idea of being able to touch another player's disc to make a determination - visually, is it in or not? If you can't tell and need to touch the disc, the decision should go in the player's favor (same as when a decision can't be made).

Anyways....until there are rules officials on each hole, there will be discrepancies on how things are called.

 

[Smigles]

My guess if you were to poll 1000 players you might get one a$$hole that would.

Douchebags enforce the rules as written without context.

People like you are the reason we have problems enforcing the rules.

I will not step down to your level and join the namecalling. But i hope you realise you are part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[autocrosscrx]

People like you are the reason we have problems enforcing the rules.

I will not step down to your level and join the namecalling. But i hope you realise you are part of the problem, not the solution.

So I had my own slip in a casual round recently. I had about a 12 footer on a muddy hill. Base of the basket above my eye level. I go to push off with my back foot and it slips in the mud at least 15 inches. I yank the straight in the air and it goes out of bounds about 20 feet right of the basket. In trying to catch myself, my right hand touches down just to the right of my mini. It is obvious and you can see where my hand swiped the ground in the mud. So I miss my putt, go OB in a spot where I have to lay up my next shot, and also end up slamming my chin into my knee and jamming up my index finger to the point that I have to change my grip going forward.

I wouldn't blanket call anyone any names, but what good would calling that penalty do? I certainly don't think the spirit of the rule is to punish people that slip and throw bad shots.

 

[krupicka]

So I had my own slip in a casual round recently. I had about a 12 footer on a muddy hill. Base of the basket above my eye level. I go to push off with my back foot and it slips in the mud at least 15 inches. I yank the straight in the air and it goes out of bounds about 20 feet right of the basket. In trying to catch myself, my right hand touches down just to the right of my mini. It is obvious and you can see where my hand swiped the ground in the mud. So I miss my putt, go OB in a spot where I have to lay up my next shot, and also end up slamming my chin into my knee and jamming up my index finger to the point that I have to change my grip going forward.

I wouldn't blanket call anyone any names, but what good would calling that penalty do? I certainly don't think the spirit of the rule is to punish people that slip and throw bad shots.

The rules are there so everyone is playing the same game.

QA-OB-6
https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/questions-and-answers#t5601n237906

 

[araytx]

it is a penalty for stepping on your marker? What rule is that?

A skateboarder is balanced on the skateboard even though it is moving underneath him. Cannot a disc golfer be balanced on the ground even though the ground is moving beneath him?

If you step on the marker you're no longer behind it. The rule is ".demonstrate balance no closer than the rear of the marker…." Once you step on it (or touch it) you're no longer meeting that requirement.

 

[Smigles]

So I had my own slip in a casual round recently. I had about a 12 footer on a muddy hill. Base of the basket above my eye level. I go to push off with my back foot and it slips in the mud at least 15 inches. I yank the straight in the air and it goes out of bounds about 20 feet right of the basket. In trying to catch myself, my right hand touches down just to the right of my mini. It is obvious and you can see where my hand swiped the ground in the mud. So I miss my putt, go OB in a spot where I have to lay up my next shot, and also end up slamming my chin into my knee and jamming up my index finger to the point that I have to change my grip going forward.

I wouldn't blanket call anyone any names, but what good would calling that penalty do? I certainly don't think the spirit of the rule is to punish people that slip and throw bad shots.

Knowing the rules can save you strokes.

You can always re-throw instead of going to the lie where you have to layup your next shot.

Also, for your example: You only get one penalty stroke. I dont think it is important to define wether that is for your OB, your "falling putt" or for your re-throw (see my point above). Wether somebody calls you on touching the ground beside your marker or not would not change the score.

I hope your finger is fine.

While I have sympathy for the situation, that should not play into a rules discussion. The rules are so that everybody plays the same game.

 

[robdeforge]

So I had my own slip in a casual round recently. I had about a 12 footer on a muddy hill. Base of the basket above my eye level. I go to push off with my back foot and it slips in the mud at least 15 inches. I yank the straight in the air and it goes out of bounds about 20 feet right of the basket. In trying to catch myself, my right hand touches down just to the right of my mini. It is obvious and you can see where my hand swiped the ground in the mud. So I miss my putt, go OB in a spot where I have to lay up my next shot, and also end up slamming my chin into my knee and jamming up my index finger to the point that I have to change my grip going forward.

I wouldn't blanket call anyone any names, but what good would calling that penalty do? I certainly don't think the spirit of the rule is to punish people that slip and throw bad shots.

QA-OB-6: A player in my group foot-faulted and was called on it (and seconded). His throw went OB. Does he get a warning, a penalty, or two penalties?

A player's first stance violation results in a penalty throw. In this case, there were multiple violations. Normally, the first violation to occur is the one that counts. In this case, that's the foot fault (though it doesn't really matter as it's one penalty throw either way). There's no re-throw, so the disc is played as OB. Since a player cannot receive penalty throws for multiple violations on a single throw, there's just one penalty throw.

https://www.pdga.com/faq/rules/qa-o...and-was-called-it-and-seconded-his-throw-went

edit: didn't realize krupicka linked to this already. but my link works better

 

[Dingus]

If you step on the marker you're no longer behind it. The rule is ".demonstrate balance no closer than the rear of the marker…." Once you step on it (or touch it) you're no longer meeting that requirement.

So no, there is no rule against stepping on your marker. If I demonstrate balance I am free to step on my marker afterwards, correct?

People like you are the reason we have problems enforcing the rules.

I will not step down to your level and join the namecalling. But i hope you realise you are part of the problem, not the solution.

We don't have problems enforcing the rules. Douchebags are gaslighting everyone else saying there is a problem when reasonable people can play a round without any rules issues happening. Take your Hegelian dialectic elsewhere.

 

[Rastnav]

Lord, this conversation has dragged itself into the mud.

In a PDGA tournament or other sanctioned event, it would be a penalty. If you are sliding in the mud you haven't displayed balance, not until you come to a stop. If you released, displayed balance on one foot, and then slid afterwards (say as you were bring your foot back to the ground), that would be different. But sliding in the middle of, or after, release isn't any different than a step putt, as you haven't displayed control of your momentum.

Are people going to call you on it? As always, that depends, but the question is a completely separate one from whether it's a penalty under the rules. People fail to call foot faults on approach shots all the time in competition, but it doesn't mean they aren't penalties.

In a casual round or some non-sanctioned competition, like weekly random doubles, do whatever is fair. If everyone else is playing as if it were a PDGA sanctioned event, don't cheat them by deciding what's "fair". If everyone else is taking "local rules" liberties, do the same. This is not rocket science.

The idea that casual rounds, practice rounds, or local unsanctioned competition rounds somehow inform the rules in sanctioned competition is just a weird expectation. Are you expecting people will not throw a practice/second shot in a practice round? Of course not.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I didn't know about the no multiple penalty thing. So I learned something today.

I guess my point is that if you calling penalties on people that fall in the mud and touch next to their mini after their shot has landed, then you are setting a standard where you are scrutinizing if MJ established balance before he picks up his mini and probably calling dozens of foot faults and stance penalties and whatever else per round. And I don't think that is the standard that 99% of the people play want. Maybe that is one way to get back to where we can enter leagues and tournaments we want.

 

[dmoore1998]

We don't have problems enforcing the rules. Douchebags are gaslighting everyone else saying there is a problem when reasonable people can play a round without any rules issues happening. Take your Hegelian dialectic elsewhere.

Reasonable people who either don't know, or have no interest in enforcing the rules, can always play a round without any "rules issues" happening.

That's a separate question entirely from whether something is actually breaking the rules.

I see this as no different than a pickup basketball game. If the guy dribbling the ball up the court notices he has a shoelace untied...he picks up the ball, ties his shoe, and then starts dribbling again. No issue. But if someone comes onto a rules forum and asks me if those particular actions constitute a double-dribble...the answer is "of course it's a double dribble". Whether self-made groups enforce that is up to them.

There are the actual rules. And then there are the modified/casual rules that groups work out amongst themselves. This forum seems a lot more like the "what are the actual rules" type of question-asking-place...because nobody can answer what your self-made groups actually use/enforce as rules.

Just like I'm pretty sure there are no official rules on "gimmes" within a certain distance...but you're going to catch a disc to the back if you protest when someone starts picking up a couple "parked" discs within our regular group.

 

[Dingus]

There are the actual rules. And then there are the modified/casual rules that groups work out amongst themselves. This forum seems a lot more like the "what are the actual rules" type of question-asking-place...because nobody can answer what your self-made groups actually use/enforce as rules.

The issue here isn't determining what the rules are, it is when to call a penalty when the situation is borderline. In any sport, I don't care if it is football or darts or disc golf, if reasonable minds can differ I want the ruling to favor the player without penalty.

Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". This means he did display balance before advancing, even though that balance was displayed while in motion. Smigles invented a rule out of whole cloth (marker foul?) to try and say there was a penalty. Others are implying that being in motion means you aren't displaying balance, which isn't stated anywhere in the rules. Based on a strict reading of the rules, OP did not deserve a penalty.

I respect that a reasonable person could assume that balance cannot be maintained while in motion. I also think it is reasonable to think OP was truthful in saying he had balance while sliding. I take both reasonable positions and err on the side of the player. This is not a "problem", this is how rules enforcement should be done.

 

[dmoore1998]

The issue here isn't determining what the rules are, it is when to call a penalty when the situation is borderline. In any sport, I don't care if it is football or darts or disc golf, if reasonable minds can differ I want the ruling to favor the player without penalty.

Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". This means he did display balance before advancing, even though that balance was displayed while in motion. Smigles invented a rule out of whole cloth (marker foul?) to try and say there was a penalty. Others are implying that being in motion means you aren't displaying balance, which isn't stated anywhere in the rules. Based on a strict reading of the rules, OP did not deserve a penalty.

I respect that a reasonable person could assume that balance cannot be maintained while in motion. I also think it is reasonable to think OP was truthful in saying he had balance while sliding. I take both reasonable positions and err on the side of the player. This is not a "problem", this is how rules enforcement should be done.

806.01B After having released a putt, the player must demonstrate full control of balance behind the marker disc before advancing toward the target. A player who fails to do so has committed a stance violation and receives one penalty throw.

I get your balance argument, I'm not sure I'm seeing your reasoning for the 2nd qualification of the rule. "behind the marker disc before advancing toward the target". OP is sliding, while balanced let's say, but while sliding is advancing toward the target because of the slippage. OP is also no longer behind their marker disc point while doing this.

Are you interpreting his sliding forward toward the target to not be "advancing toward the target"? I'm assuming that your argument for being behind the marker is that at some point during the slide, he was behind the disc. So even if was a split second where he was sliding in a balanced way and behind his disc...that meets the balance criteria and the criteria for being behind his mark?

 

[Dingus]

Are you interpreting his sliding forward toward the target to not be "advancing toward the target"?

Advancing towards the target means past the lie. You can do a jump putt inside the circle where you jump a couple inches behind your lie and regain balance before advancing past the lie.

Imagine the insanity of saying you cannot advance AT ALL from where you putted. So if your foot slides even a millimeter forward, while still being behind the lie, you get a penalty? Crazy talk.

 

[peabody]

Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". .

In a perfect world this might be true. Your foursome doesn't make a call then the next foursome has someone that does make the call.
I believe that touching a marker disc during the throw (even a slide afterwards) is a rules infraction. Did the thrower gain an advantage? (no) Did he intentionally step on the marker?(no) Has the thrower made any foot faults up to this point?
Smiggls might be right. In the spirit of fairness every foot fault has to be called every single time then all the namecalling(my appologies) might stop so peace and love will guide the planets.

 

[Dingus]

I believe that touching a marker disc during the throw (even a slide afterwards) is a rules infraction. .

So you view a slide as always off balance. I respect that as a reasonable position. I do not feel that way. Do you feel my position is reasonable? If I made my case on the course would you recognize the two reasonable positions and give the benefit to the thrower?

 

[dmoore1998]

Advancing towards the target means past the lie. You can do a jump putt inside the circle where you jump a couple inches behind your lie and regain balance before advancing past the lie.

Imagine the insanity of saying you cannot advance AT ALL from where you putted. So if your foot slides even a millimeter forward, while still being behind the lie, you get a penalty? Crazy talk.

Ok, but that's my question to you. Your interpretation of being behind the marker, on balance, BEFORE he advances to the target...is that there's a point during the slide where he's balanced and behind the target line...and then after the point he's established those 2 things is the point at which he goes past his mark (and potentially advances to the target)?

Essentially that the slide is 2 things...or two parts. One part where he's behind his mark and satisfies the rule. And then at another point later in the slide where he crosses his mark?

You can do a jump putt behind your mark, regain balance behind the lie, then move forward toward the target. But that's a movement forward, followed by a specific action (establishing balance behind the target) which satisfies the rule, then moving forward. This is one motion, I'm just trying to get to your logic as to whether you're interpreting that singular motion (the slide) to comprise 2 parts...one which meets the rule, and then one which crosses the mark AFTER satisfying the rule. Or if you're interpreting the mark differently and the sliding past it to be something else in your rationale?

 

[peabody]

So you view a slide as always off balance. I respect that as a reasonable position. I do not feel that way. Do you feel my position is reasonable? If I made my case on the course would you recognize the two reasonable positions and give the benefit to the thrower?

Perfectly reasonable. Thats the problem with some of the rules. Left to interpretation by the group will result in multiple rulings.
If a call (foot fault) was made then it's too late to do anything about it.
He touched the mini during the throw so it is an infraction. Am I going to call it? Nope

 

[Dingus]

Ok, but that's my question to you. Your interpretation of being behind the marker, on balance, BEFORE he advances to the target...is that there's a point during the slide where he's balanced and behind the target line...and then after the point he's established those 2 things is the point at which he goes past his mark (and potentially advances to the target)?

Essentially that the slide is 2 things...or two parts. One part where he's behind his mark and satisfies the rule. And then at another point later in the slide where he crosses his mark?

You can do a jump putt behind your mark, regain balance behind the lie, then move forward toward the target. But that's a movement forward, followed by a specific action (establishing balance behind the target) which satisfies the rule, then moving forward. This is one motion, I'm just trying to get to your logic as to whether you're interpreting that singular motion (the slide) to comprise 2 parts...one which meets the rule, and then one which crosses the mark AFTER satisfying the rule. Or if you're interpreting the mark differently and the sliding past it to be something else in your rationale?

You are making this very complicated. OP throws the putt, maintains balance, and slides past the mark, in that order. According to the rule as written no penalty. What you are saying is that you don't consider anyone "in motion" to be displaying balance, therefore the OP threw his putt and slid past the mark without ever displaying balance. That is fine if that is your personal opinion, but nothing in the rule supports you specifically one way or another. Maybe you are correct, maybe I am, until the PDGA addresses it we have two reasonable interpretations.