Stance Question

[jimimc]

I thought you could not use an object, say hold on to a tree behind you with your off hand, to get a legal stance behind your mini. The problem is we can't actually find this in the rule book. Help?

 

[Pwingles]

I think you aret allowed to use anything in front of your mini. Might be wrong tho

 

[JC17393]

I thought you could not use an object, say hold on to a tree behind you with your off hand, to get a legal stance behind your mini. The problem is we can't actually find this in the rule book. Help?

If it can provide support without movement, it is perfectly legal to use a tree behind your lie for support. This is the only relevant rule...

803.01 Obstacles and Relief
A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described below, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course.

If it moves or bends to your weight, it can't be used for support. If it is solid and unmoving, like a tree trunk, it's fine to use for support.

 

[krupicka]

This is covered in the Rules Q&A on pdga.com

 

[pablo.diablo]

Here is the rule:

802.04 A

A Player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

=========================================================

So you can step into a bush, and imo you can technically use your body to pin back some of the branches behind you (causing the least amount of movement possible), but you cannot use your arm or off-hand to hold stuff back and clear a lane for your throwing motion, see?

Branches are flexible and the space your body takes up by taking a legal stance may naturally move some of them into another position behind you, which is okay from my interpretation of the rule. You just can't be flagrant about clearing a line for yourself and you should be OK.

"...least movement of any part of any obstacle..." does not mean it has to be an immovable or affixed object. This is why I used a branchy bush as an example. The lie may not be unplayable but you are REQUIRED (b/c two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time) to "move" part of the bush just to get your foot behind your disc when it's under or at the base of a bush or bushy tree.

I would even argue that you can lean back into branches behind you as long as your weight is supported by your feet/knees and not the branches themselves (in other words, you are not "sitting" on flexible branches, but still standing or otherwise fully supporting your own weight). In this instance your stance must be solid and you are only extending to reach for your release. The branches being held WITH MINIMAL MOVEMENT behind you is just a result of your legal stance.

This is my interpretation of the paragraph at the top.

 

[pablo.diablo]

Try not to intentionally move an obstacle after taking your legal stance, period.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I believe the strict interpretation of the rule requires players to lie on the ground to take a legal stance in many situations to meet the "least movement" part of the rule. However, the practical (not legal) intepretation allows players to take a standing stance in the foliage that produces the least displacement of foliage prior to initiating the throwing motion.

 

[JC17393]

So you can step into a bush, and imo you can technically use your body to pin back some of the branches behind you (causing the least amount of movement possible), but you cannot use your arm or off-hand to hold stuff back and clear a lane for your throwing motion, see?

I strongly disagree with the idea that you can use your body to pin back any branches. Least movement possible is least movement possible. If you can take a position that does not pin the branches back, that's the position you have to take. The rules don't allow for a preferred or comfortable stance, only a legal one. If it means laying down under the branches to cause the least amount of disturbance, them's the breaks.

Allowing for any pinning of branches back, IMO, opens the door for players to blatantly back into a bush starting from where they intend to throw and clear out a throwing lane for themselves as they go. That's not incidental movement at all. Around here, we call it tunneling for a shot.

I typically instruct players that if they need to move a branch to get their foot down in to stand on the lie, they can, but once their foot is down, they have to let the branch return as closely as possible to its original state. If that's in front of them or across their body, so be it. If the branch can't return to its original position, the player has to adjust, not the branch. Ultimately it can't be held out of position by a leg, butt, back, arm, head or otherwise.

 

[JoakimBL]

also, you shouldn't be allowed to move at all, if you stand in tall grass, because then the grass would move ...

 

[pablo.diablo]

Feel free to strongly disagree, yet I still disagree with your disagreement.

I can show you better than I can tell you. Sometimes there is no feasible way to get into a bush without pinning something back, this is what I mean. It's still the least movement possible. Like I said, you just can't get flagrant about it.

If I'm the the trash and this happens, and you wanna call me on it, that's your prerogative. I think you should be able to stand on your own two feet, displacing whatever behind you as necessary to take a stance and throw, and not have to lay on the freakin' ground. That's just silly.

This is all semantics and interpretation so there's no possible way to have a concrete agreement that satisfies all sides.

 

[JC17393]

also, you shouldn't be allowed to move at all, if you stand in tall grass, because then the grass would move ...

I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but there's a big difference between holding back a branch while your body is stationary, and branches/grass moving on account of a player's motion. The first, I believe, is explicitly disallowed by the rules whereas the second is explicitly allowed by the rules.

As far as long grass goes, I've never been comfortable with players tromping down long grass behind their mark to give themselves a clear run-up. My feeling is if you land in the long grass, whatever falls under your feet when in a stance is fair game, but grass not directly underfoot should be kept upright and "in the way" as much as possible. If you have to run up through the long grass, fine, but you don't get to stomp it down flat before you run-up/throw. You deal with it tangling in your legs and possibly tripping you up.

Unfortunately, long grass tends to be treated differently (like it's short grass, really) than bushes/trees/etc by the majority of players.

 

[Future_Primitive]

I strongly disagree with the idea that you can use your body to pin back any branches. Least movement possible is least movement possible. If you can take a position that does not pin the branches back, that's the position you have to take. The rules don't allow for a preferred or comfortable stance, only a legal one. If it means laying down under the branches to cause the least amount of disturbance, them's the breaks.

Allowing for any pinning of branches back, IMO, opens the door for players to blatantly back into a bush starting from where they intend to throw and clear out a throwing lane for themselves as they go. That's not incidental movement at all. Around here, we call it tunneling for a shot.

I typically instruct players that if they need to move a branch to get their foot down in to stand on the lie, they can, but once their foot is down, they have to let the branch return as closely as possible to its original state. If that's in front of them or across their body, so be it. If the branch can't return to its original position, the player has to adjust, not the branch. Ultimately it can't be held out of position by a leg, butt, back, arm, head or otherwise.

This is what I was told during a tournament by a um, er, um passive agressive rule nazi who claimed to have been playing and TD'ing for 15 years. You are not allowed to back into your position, if you are in a bush you need to approach your disc from behind and crawl in. You can not stand between the disc and basket and back into position.

Again, just what I was told by someone who claimed to be in the know but also completely ignored the 30 second throw rule and took 1-3 minutes to set up, pick a disc, set up, pick a new disc, backhand look, forehand look, set up... and finally throw. :wall:

Not knowing for sure I just played along. :\

 

[Cgkdisc]

The problem with tall grass is when does it become "foliage". Milkweed and cattails seem to get foliage status compared with tall grass.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The "smart" way to look for your disc in tall grass is to start forward of where you think it is so you're naturally knocking down some of the grass in front of it until you come upon it. Veteran move.

 

[pablo.diablo]

Just to clarify, I am not talking about "backing in" or "tunneling" to your disc.

I'm talking about coming in either from the side or behind, and the junk completely BEHIND your lie (not branches that start in front of you) getting "pinned" by virtue of your body taking up space, and that is all.

I just don't think branches should have to be treated like lasers that are gonna cut you in half and you have to avoid all contact with them. There are some bushes that are so thick that it's literally impossible not to touch something to get your foot in place. By others' interpretation this should be ruled "unplayable" perhaps, but I just can't agree with that.

This is totally my opinion and interpretation of the rule, and I ALWAYS try *very* hard to take legal stances and execute legal throws. The rule does not say NOTHING can be moved, it says the LEAST MOVEMENT possible, meaning there has to be some sort of room for obstacles to "give" or "move" minimally with the least reasonable disturbance.

The only time I've even seen this called is when somebody moves a branch with their off-hand anyway, and that's always a warning.

 

[JC17393]

Just to clarify, I am not talking about "backing in" or "tunneling" to your disc.

I'm talking about coming in either from the side or behind, and the junk completely BEHIND your lie (not branches that start in front of you) getting "pinned" by virtue of your body taking up space, and that is all.

I just don't think branches should have to be treated like lasers that are gonna cut you in half and you have to avoid all contact with them. There are some bushes that are so thick that it's literally impossible not to touch something to get your foot in place. By others' interpretation this should be ruled "unplayable" perhaps, but I just can't agree with that.

This is totally my opinion and interpretation of the rule, and I ALWAYS try *very* hard to take legal stances and execute legal throws. The rule does not say NOTHING can be moved, it says the LEAST MOVEMENT possible, meaning there has to be some sort of room for obstacles to "give" or "move" minimally with the least reasonable disturbance.

The only time I've even seen this called is when somebody moves a branch with their off-hand anyway, and that's always a warning.

In front or behind doesn't really make a difference...if you are holding something out of its normal position intentionally (and I'd argue that "pinning" a branch behind your body is intentionally holding it out of its normal position), you're not causing the least movement possible. Note I'm not saying one can't make contact with these branches (no one is arguing your "laser" point of view). I'm saying you can't push these branches out of position with any part of your body.

The rules actually do say "the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion" (802.04 A). I'd argue that pinning a branch out of position with one's body is moving it to make room for a throwing motion. And I don't understand differentiating between using one's body to do the pinning or a hand/arm. Either way, you're holding a branch out of the way to make room for a throwing motion.

 

[JoakimBL]

The problem as I see it is that there is a common sense interpretation and a rules nazi way of looking at this. I don't usually think of players enforcing the rules as rules nazis. Usually I believe that either you are following the rules or you are breaking them. I love black and white rules, but this one has a little grey in it, and then it becomes difficult because we interpret that grey area differently. We also play in very different terrain and weather. While it might be perfectly reasonable to expect people in warm and dry climate to lie flat on the stomach and crawl under a bush, people might see it differently playing in cold and rainy conditions, crawling through mud and puddles. It's pretty easy to use common sense and judge when people are trying not to move branches and foliage, and when they are trying to gain and advantage, but it's a different matter entirely of defining the fine line when writing the rules.
Here in Denmark, some courses have 5 feet high stinging nettles in the summer, and I don't think anyone have a problem with stepping them down, as long as it's not in front of you lie, but strictly interpreting the rules that could be grounds for DQ

 

[JC17393]

In my opinion, it is strictly the "common sense interpretations" where grey areas emerge, mainly because what is common sense can differ between different players. Literal interpretations generally leave no room for grey areas, including with this rule. Which is why I tend to favor literal interpretations rather than "common sense" in most situations. And by the way, players making literal interpretations do not equate to rules "nazis". That term is easily the most ridiculous and offensive term in our sport.

 

[Organicvoodoo]

There is 2 many grey rules in disc golf

 

[ChrisKramer]

I often see players in tournaments using a disc or towel to kneel on while sticking one leg under an obstacle to avoid moving it. It's just another part of the game.