The Case For and Against Stand-And-Deliver

[Halcón]

Like I said before, I haven't been interested in watching for or calling foot faults unless the person is clearly trying to avoid obstacles and more than a yard away from where they should be.. I wouldn't use one, and wouldn't want play to slow down to use one..

BUT, it is clear some people are.. /shrug, if you are playing for 100k you may feel differently.


I could only think of using spray paint around the disc..

Which if we are talking a real pro match here.. caddies responsibility could be cover the disc with a paper, spray paint down, remove disc, and there you have your perfectly marked lie.

This is taking something very simple (establishing the lie), and making it complicated.

 

[jenb]

If you made a poll and people voted for or against it, I bet the results would be overwhelmingly against it. You should probably put "extremely upopular idea" under "disadvantages."

 

[Cgkdisc]

Buried in this discussion is the real question whether shots from our fairways should have an additional throwing style challenge to emulate the challenge inherent in ball golf where they have to play the ball where it lies after the tee shot and not tee it up. Where we have concrete pads, players will naturally be playing from a surface not likely concrete and many times it's rough(er). However, the surface doesn't directly hamper the contact point between the hand throwing the disc in the same way it does with the club/ball contact point.

Typically, our tee shots are more open without trees closer to your face most of the time (yes, there are a few "stupid" tee positions). Trees and obstructions are more the case after your tee shot, especially on some courses. The only other restriction I can think of if your tee shot is in the circle is no falling putts.

So up for debate is whether our sport might be better if we had some additional, not yet specified, challenge for shots after the tee? We're not ball golf and have no requirement to fully emulate their game. The question is more from the standpoint of game design and the possibility some additional challenge, not necessarily S&D at all, might make it better.

Are the additional challenges we have sufficient, or are there other ideas to consider? And go...

 

[Halcón]

Are the additional challenges we have sufficient, or are there other ideas to consider? And go...

Who are we trying to make the game more challenging for?

Leaving things exactly the way they are, but calling the faults would change it enough. At least in the short term.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Who are we trying to make the game more challenging for?

Was basketball good enough before the 3-pt shot? Many diehards probably thought so. Perhaps "challenge" isn't the correct word but perhaps "richness of the game experience" is better. For example, what other sport has the amount of artwork involved that we allow on official equipment, i.e. custom hotstamps and dying? I believe artwork adds to the richness of our gaming experience even though it might seem less professional (and potentially suspect in terms of equipment meeting specs) from the perspective of other sports authorities.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Was basketball good enough before the 3-pt shot? Many diehards probably thought so. Perhaps "challenge" isn't the correct word but perhaps "richness of the game experience" is better. For example, what other sport has the amount of artwork involved that we allow on official equipment, i.e. custom hotstamps and dying? I believe artwork adds to the richness of our gaming experience even though it might seem less professional (and potentially suspect in terms of equipment meeting specs) from the perspective of other sports authorities.

Not sure I follow the basketball analogy. Seems like the analogy is more like the 3-pointer exists, but it is too hard to tell if the players foot is behind the line, so lets get rid of it. Then some pros might argue it is better to have to have the skill and coaching to run effective plays, in order to get a shot closer to the basket, but that opinion that is not enforced by the opinion of most fans or casual players. Fans and Casual players like seeing players try long shots, just like they like the feeling of throwing the disc far.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Was basketball good enough before the 3-pt shot? Many diehards probably thought so. Perhaps "challenge" isn't the correct word but perhaps "richness of the game experience" is better. For example, what other sport has the amount of artwork involved that we allow on official equipment, i.e. custom hotstamps and dying? I believe artwork adds to the richness of our gaming experience even though it might seem less professional (and potentially suspect in terms of equipment meeting specs) from the perspective of other sports authorities.

Uh---the playing field, uniforms, the stadium/arena itself, fans, fans' vehicles, their firstborn, etc. All dolled up with the same type of "art" found on discs. Maybe not as richly detailed, but the same idea.

Oh yeah, "stand and deliver". I keep hearing Adam Ant.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Uh---the playing field, uniforms, the stadium/arena itself, fans, fans' vehicles, their firstborn, etc. All dolled up with the same type of "art" found on discs.

My point is those are not the actual equipment used to play the game.

 

[bradharris]

My point is those are not the actual equipment used to play the game.

NASCAR - Cars are highly regulated equipment that is integral to the competition. They are also works of art.

Hockey - There are some pretty elaborate hockey masks.

Football - Helmets with fancy logos

 

[New013]

My point is those are not the actual equipment used to play the game.

you're allowed to write on your golf ball....

 

[Pwingles]

I hearby motion to kill this idea and all discussion on the subject

(Someone second this and then we vote)

 

[turbosteve]

Was basketball good enough before the 3-pt shot? Many diehards probably thought so. Perhaps "challenge" isn't the correct word but perhaps "richness of the game experience" is better. For example, what other sport has the amount of artwork involved that we allow on official equipment, i.e. custom hotstamps and dying? I believe artwork adds to the richness of our gaming experience even though it might seem less professional (and potentially suspect in terms of equipment meeting specs) from the perspective of other sports authorities.

Formula 1 has a lot of artwork on the driver's cars and over 500 million people around the world watch a grand prix.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Apparently you missed the point of the original comment. It was not about the artwork itself but that it was a pretty unique element we allow on our play equipment that could be seen as adding richness to the game. Racing vehicles are the closest equivalent so far to discs. Masks and helmets are clothing, not the play equipment like footballs, pucks or sticks. And this, so far, one sided discussion is only marginally connected with S&D but with possible improvements to the game for fairway shots.

 

[The Hammer]

I hearby motion to kill this idea and all discussion on the subject

(Someone second this and then we vote)

Seconded.

 

[bradharris]

Buried in this discussion is the real question whether shots from our fairways should have an additional throwing style challenge to emulate the challenge inherent in ball golf where they have to play the ball where it lies after the tee shot and not tee it up. Where we have concrete pads, players will naturally be playing from a surface not likely concrete and many times it's rough(er). However, the surface doesn't directly hamper the contact point between the hand throwing the disc in the same way it does with the club/ball contact point.

Typically, our tee shots are more open without trees closer to your face most of the time (yes, there are a few "stupid" tee positions). Trees and obstructions are more the case after your tee shot, especially on some courses. The only other restriction I can think of if your tee shot is in the circle is no falling putts.

So up for debate is whether our sport might be better if we had some additional, not yet specified, challenge for shots after the tee? We're not ball golf and have no requirement to fully emulate their game. The question is more from the standpoint of game design and the possibility some additional challenge, not necessarily S&D at all, might make it better.

Are the additional challenges we have sufficient, or are there other ideas to consider? And go...

Another aspect to consider is the par 3 mentality of disc golf. Courses are getting longer and we're seeing more 4 and 5 par holes. But the vast majority are still par 3s. So in most cases, a good tee shot results in a lie that does not need a high power fairway shot. Eliminating run-ups would serve to further punish players who throw bad tee shots and need to get some power behind a recovery shot. This in turn cuts down on the number of "wow factor" recovery shots to save par.

That crazy fairway par save may be a turning point in the round for that player. Often, those are the kinds of shots you walk away remembering, sometimes more so than nice tee shots. Shots like that are what keep players coming back for more.

 

[ohtobediscing]

I hearby motion to kill this idea and all discussion on the subject

(Someone second this and then we vote)

"Stand and deliver" is just like restrictor plate racing, and NO driver likes that at all.

I vote nay. Motion carried.

 

[nolangherity]

this is all just mental masturbation anyways. what if you can only use drivers off the tee, midranges for your second shot, and putters for your 3rd? what if everyone had to use the same disc? what if you could only use 100g discs? what if you had to wear a blindfold if you threw ob? what if you weren't allowed to line up a shot before you threw it? what if when your disc lands upsidedown and you get a stroke for that?

who.

cares.

 

[The Hammer]

Imagination police in tha building!

 

[Norcal]

Regarding Dave242's S&D zone, we were looking into creating some hazards where the player pretty much had to s&d. One option is to scatter boulders 12-18 inches in diam spaced about 18-24 inches apart in an area. Another was to position timbers in an area sort of like giant pick up sticks with similar spacing to the boulders so players could stand there. Another was a trap filled with pea gravel instead of sand where you couldn't get decent footing.

This is a great concept but it shouldn't be limited to "hazards". Fairways should allow for a unhindered throw, e.g. runup, while the "rough" should consistently limit one's throwing options, e.g. stand and deliver. Typically, disc golf "rough" consists of scattered trees. The punishment delivered by scattered trees is far too inconsistent to be a fair test of skills.

I believe scores would actually go down not up if S&D were in place. Players would be more grooved in their throwing motion and throw more accurately. You see it all the time on wooded holes. If you can s&d even from the tee pad, you'll likely be more accurate over time since there's less going on mechanically. That's one of the first things I suggest to newer players struggling in the woods. They're sometimes doing full run-ups and flailing as much as they do out in the open.

Truth.

 

[bradharris]

this is all just mental masturbation anyways. what if you can only use drivers off the tee, midranges for your second shot, and putters for your 3rd? what if everyone had to use the same disc? what if you could only use 100g discs? what if you had to wear a blindfold if you threw ob? what if you weren't allowed to line up a shot before you threw it? what if when your disc lands upsidedown and you get a stroke for that?

who.

cares.

Thank you for your insightful contribution to this discussion.

This is just that, a discussion, no one expects anything to come of it, that doesn't mean we don't like talking about it.

Go turn on ESPN and you'll see all sorts of random debates that have no end result and no correct answer, that doesn't mean they're worthless.

No one's forcing you to read this or participate.