The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[Blake_T1]

i guess what i get to is that there's a couple of things that have to happen in a throw. couple of motions and positions that should at least sort of happen. a few timing things that must happen.

everyone makes those things happen in different ways, and each style has some strengths and some weaknesses vs. getting there in a different way.

the low pull line of euro players assists in providing amazing leverage on the "out motion" of the throw but it also takes away almost everything you would get from the elbow extension. the out motion dominates the elbow extension's in motion, so it can be moot but it's sacrificing a marginal amount of power in the process. a low pull can be easier for many to feel the timing. if it gives you the timing and a powerful out motion that is more important than trying to get the elbow involved and failing in the timing/out motion.

if the focus is on the timing and the launch, people will naturally gravitate towards positions that work for their body. the differences between men and women in many cases is similar between the differences between two men, 1 of which has arms that are so long that his hands almost reach his knees and 1 of which has arms that are so short they barely reach his pockets.

basically, if you focus on the out motion you will develop methods taking you to that out motion that won't conflict with your particular build and shape.

 

[josser]

having taught over a dozen women to throw 300'+ on their first day of playing (half a dozen of which hit 350' their first day)...

Well that is terribly embarrassing for me and fantastic for all parties involved on your end (your teaching and the ladies' distance). I broke 300' for the first time this summer after close to a year of trying to learn from this site. One day?

That's some fine work right there Blake.

 

[Blake_T1]

if you start people with solid base fundamentals and with the right plastic it tends to fare pretty well.

gotta remember that these were people that i introduced to the sport, which is completely different from people that have approached me after starting. a lot of people wonder why i'm fairly set on my ways of getting people up and going but in my first 3 years of disc golf i took 250+ people out for their first rounds ever and got at least 100 of them throwing 300' within their first 5 rounds.

on average, it took me 13 holes to get them breaking 275'.

it's really just about getting started in the right way.

 

[jenb1]

I'm doing the snap drills more or less daily now, and I am wondering what the goal is of the drills. It seems to me, from the way the drills focus on rapidly stopping the disc while keeping it from leaving the hand, that the drills are developing stronger grip and training the muscles to accelerate up to the snap point. Is that correct? If not, I must be going it wrong. BTW, ow! These drills hurt!

 

[Blake_T1]

the primary goal of the drills is to develop a feel for shifting the disc's weight as well as find motions/positions that allow that to happen correctly.

the ideal goal of it is to get a drill for the out motion and learn to snap the disc.

the arm must stop to fire the wrist.

i recommend using tape or a glove to do the drills.

 

[JR]

Gripping too tightly with the pinky, ring finger and possibly middle finger may prevent the disc from leaving the palm pivoting around the finger print areas of thumb and index finger. Trying out different pressures with pinky to middle finger help in getting the disc to pivot. I highly recommend the hammer pound drill although IMO swatting a fly with a rolled news paper analogy describes the need of lightning fast speed and therefore loose muscles from elbow down. Also using thin short winged discs like Innova XD or Latitude64 Spike help in getting the pivot and the feel for it.

 

[Star Shark]

I think that's been one of my issues, in addition to timing. Gotta work on the various tensions within the grip.

 

[Blake_T1]

something else people might find is that this drill will show all of the weaknesses in your grip.

there's a lot of people out there that would probably benefit from doing this with 150 class plastic and building up.

the other thing to keep in mind is that in reality you shouldn't be doing each of the drills more than like 20 times in one sitting, but it is something that you can do 20 reps once an hour all day if you wanted to. the primary goal is feel building... basically teaching yourself to be coordinated enough to make the disc move properly and with good feel. the benefits of this drill end up being mostly biproducts of its direct training.

pounding the hammer does the in-motion. the yoyo does the out-motion.

 

[mark12b]

One thing I've never been able to figure out is if the disc is supposed to be pivoting within the hand in these drills, or if I'm supposed to be gripping tightly to prevent it. I can do the drills with just one finger hooked under the rim (no thumb up top, even), and the disc whips cleanly around the finger at the end. Or I can grip hard and stop that pivot from happening -- if I do that I can see where a glove would be good. Or I can do something in between, where the disc has some pivot but it also has some rubbing on the side of the index finger..

 

[Blake_T1]

the idea for the out motion is to feel the disc roll forward in the hand so that when your wrist extends it jumps off the palm into the pivot/sling.

the hammer in is meant to prime that to be ready to "explode" hard.

 

[jenb1]

I basically copied Dan's video technique as closely as possible, and at this point, I think I am getting a lot of spin, but not much velocity. Everyone comments on how good my form looks and how much spin I'm getting.

But my distance is still pretty low (rarely over 300), and I keep finding that while a mid-speed stable disc like a t-bird flies straight as you please, slower stable discs like rocs tend to turn over unless I don't throw hard, and then they only go out to 200 or so. Does it sound like my throw is dominated by spin from these symptoms?

In order to get more velocity, should I be trying to adjust the snap to trade some spin for some velocity, perhaps by moving it a little more to the side, instead of directly in front of me? On the other hand, should I leave the snap where it is and focus on faster hip rotation, longer steps on the runup, or something like that?

 

[jubuttib]

But my distance is still pretty low (rarely over 300), and I keep finding that while a mid-speed stable disc like a t-bird flies straight as you please, slower stable discs like rocs tend to turn over unless I don't throw hard, and then they only go out to 200 or so. Does it sound like my throw is dominated by spin from these symptoms?

If you're turning Rocs over at those distances it's either a very very very beat Roc or you're getting a wonky release. Especially if you're getting good spin, more spin would lead to both less turn and fade, not more.

EDIT: I had the same problems with Rocs and my MD1s. They just didn't feel right at all in my hand even after two years of throwing them and I had lots of consistency issues with the release.

 

[jenb1]

Well, I had pretty good luck throwing my rocs and putters today, even in a bit of a tailwind.

I've always had a really short stride, even though I'm average height (5', 7"), and the other people on my card usually arrive at the next tee while I'm still only halfway there. In my runup, I have only been using half the tee.

But today, I tried really lengthening my stride in my x step, and the results appeared to be noticably more distance. Not a whole lot more, but a significant amount.

As I said, there was a bit of a tailwind, so I don't know if it's helping as much as I think, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Blake_T1]

i was able to get some feedback from a semi-local player that i worked with for one session at the end of last season. he worked on the hammer drills all through the winter (even going so far as to practice it with his right hand while driving) and has reached a state of completely half-hitting it. he's a pretty athletic guy with tons of muscle mass and it seems he's pretty much reached what i consider the peak for half-hitting line drives, which is in the 440-460' range with a disc like a destroyer (up from his 370-390' before the drills).

the other thing that caught me as a plus was that he started doing the drill with a disc in hand and naturally started getting the full pivot (basically hammering into the yo yo).

i have a feeling 1 or 2 sessions will get him breaking 500' on s-curves.

 

[isobar1]

i was able to get some feedback from a semi-local player that i worked with for one session at the end of last season. he worked on the hammer drills all through the winter (even going so far as to practice it with his right hand while driving) and has reached a state of completely half-hitting it. he's a pretty athletic guy with tons of muscle mass and it seems he's pretty much reached what i consider the peak for half-hitting line drives, which is in the 440-460' range with a disc like a destroyer (up from his 370-390' before the drills).

the other thing that caught me as a plus was that he started doing the drill with a disc in hand and naturally started getting the full pivot (basically hammering into the yo yo).

i have a feeling 1 or 2 sessions will get him breaking 500' on s-curves.

Man you need to come to Michigan and teach me your ways. These are impressive results for one session.

 

[DookieHyzer]

I have reached the limits of my reachback without turning my head away from being able to see my target from out of the corner of my eye. I am maxing out at 375' with consistancy and accuracy. If I allow myself to really nut it, I can break 400', but it gets ugly accuracy-wise, and very inconsistant.

I know I am handcuffing myself from throwing further by not reaching back more but just can't bring myself to turn away from the target. Am I to just trust the the run up and consistancy of my throwing motion to deliver the throw to where I intended. Maybe if I allow myself to turn my head and just start reching back further in incriments while incorporating it into a consistant run-up?

THoughts?

 

[JoshEpoo]

I have reached the limits of my reachback without turning my head away from being able to see my target from out of the corner of my eye. I am maxing out at 375' with consistancy and accuracy. If I allow myself to really nut it, I can break 400', but it gets ugly accuracy-wise, and very inconsistant.

I know I am handcuffing myself from throwing further by not reaching back more but just can't bring myself to turn away from the target. Am I to just trust the the run up and consistancy of my throwing motion to deliver the throw to where I intended. Maybe if I allow myself to turn my head and just start reching back further in incriments while incorporating it into a consistant run-up?

THoughts?

None of the secret technique has anything to do with reach back. Hitting it has to do with the other end of the throw. Yes, you should trust the consistency of your throw to aim. Your eyes only become useful for aiming once you can consistently throw the same way each time.

 

[DookieHyzer]

My bad.....thanks for the advice, I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[Blake_T1]

Man you need to come to Michigan and teach me your ways. These are impressive results for one session.

Well, I give him the credit of seeing things through and making it happen. i only supplied the tools. during the session i think he maybe pulled it off like 5 times out of 300 throws... but then he spent like 5 months working on it and sitting around his living room pounding the hammer for a couple of hours a day and then played a ton of rounds focusing on it.

I know I am handcuffing myself from throwing further by not reaching back more but just can't bring myself to turn away from the target. Am I to just trust the the run up and consistancy of my throwing motion to deliver the throw to where I intended. Maybe if I allow myself to turn my head and just start reching back further in incriments while incorporating it into a consistant run-up?

THoughts?

you can either gain visual contact before you focus your power or establish body motions and positions that will indicate the direction of your throw. ideally you'll have both.

 

[UpFromTheAshes1]

I'm pretty stoked about this "hammer-pound" incomplete technique. I've been playing for over 6 years, and basically taught myself how to throw from reading articles on the internet. 4-5-6 years ago, I was having a lot of trouble translating what I was reading into my throw. A lot of the concepts were just lost on me, and I continually had trouble visualizing what the author was trying to tell me.

Consequently, what I learned to do was strongarm it. I can strongarm a disc out to 400-425 on max D lines. To say my approach is aggressive would be an understatement. It more like a leaping bullrush as I charge in to attack the tee. I know for a fact that I've been yanking as hard as I can from the reachback all the way through the throw.

So last week I was reading through this thread and thinking about things. Some of the concepts that I've never been able to visualize were beginning to make sense. I went out into the practice field and worked on slowing everything way down. Slowed my approach to a walk, slowed my reachback, and slowed my pull-through until it got near the right pec position. Felt strange, but also kinda cool. I was surprised at how far I was able to throw the disc while moving so slowly and seemingly using so little energy!

This saturday, I went to a local course and played 2 rounds using this slowed-down method from the tees. Didn't break any records, but it wasnt a nightmare either. In fact, I threw one shot in particular that has me super stoked about this new form:

Charlie Vettiner Park, hole 9
Pic:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1105/8ca82c58.jpg

This hole is 330, and you can't throw any kind of distance lines off the tee due to the trees which limit you both horizontally and vertically. Basically you have to throw (RHBH) a low line drive and get a little bit of turn in order to be heading for the basket. What you can't see in this photo is that there's a big ditch/trench, probably 10-15' across, that cuts across the fairway about 290' off the tee.

I've played this course probably 15-20 times, and I've never been able to clear that ditch. My longest previous throws on this hole ended up in the ditch.

So yesterday, I stepped up to the teepad, felt a little headwind blowing into my face, and pulled my Nuke out of my bag. Walked through my new slow approach, reached back slowly and smoothly, brought the disc forward slowly and smoothly, and then whipped it out from the right pec position. The disc shot out there on a beautiful line and started slowly turning a bit, heading right for the pin. My first thought was "wow that thing looks like it might clearly the ditch..." but it didn't stop there. After a little bit of fade at the end, it ended up about 8' to the left of the basket.

Wow. I've never been able to clear the ditch in 6 years of trying, and now I just cleared it by 30' !?? And by moving SLOWLY?? With seemingly LESS effort?? Into a headwind no less?? That one shot showed me the potential here. To say that I'm encouraged would be an understatement.