The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[black udder]

In regards to what was said about grip lock in the earlier post. Here's my 2 cents. When you start throwing, you'll build a certain timing up to when you can release the disc in (more or less) the direction you want it to go. However, if you are able to increase your rotational speed - perhaps by adding faster hip rotation or shoulder rotation, what you'll find is that you get to that "normal" place much faster and then before you know it, your arm will be well past your intended release angle and you will get what is termed a grip lock. It's that waaaaay off to the right (for RHBH throwers). If you practice, you can get the timing down again and get better aim.

I used to believe that having the disc come out that late was the best technique, but I've seen so many people throwing differently that I don't believe that any more. I believe it's more the rotational speed you can develop and the timing of hip rotation leading shoulder rotation leading arm pull leading wrist snap/opening. If you can get each one of those to sort of pre-start the next, then you'll get a ton of speed and that will result in more distance. If the timing is off on any of it, distance and accuracy will decrease accordingly.

The real hindrance to that late arm extension is if you're off just a little you can hyper extend your elbow which hurts. It's bad timing, yes, but it's a bigger risk than, say, just letting that elbow swing out a tad sooner.

 

[clard]

Just a quick update: I've taken the advice of a few threads, and have made some serious changes to how I practice in the field.

First, I stopped throwing a bunch of different discs and have been working with a bunch of dx teebirds. It should have been an obvious change to make, but I was stubborn and thought I could just wantonly hurl random discs and get some kind of consistency. Turns out that is a terrible way to practice.

Second, I've totally changed my throw so now I use my body a whole lot to pull my arm through and I've started trying to do this whole hammer pound business. While I know I don't totally have it down or anything (I'm still spraying them all over the place), I was getting more distance last night than I ever have before.

I've gone from throwing the teebirds about 300-320 to consistently getting them about 330-370 on my good throws. They are holding really nice lines, but I still have a little problem with them going nose up and crashing. I'm working on this, and I think I can iron it out during a few more field sessions.

 

[Blake_T1]

In regards to what was said about grip lock in the earlier post. Here's my 2 cents. When you start throwing, you'll build a certain timing up to when you can release the disc in (more or less) the direction you want it to go. However, if you are able to increase your rotational speed - perhaps by adding faster hip rotation or shoulder rotation, what you'll find is that you get to that "normal" place much faster and then before you know it, your arm will be well past your intended release angle and you will get what is termed a grip lock. It's that waaaaay off to the right (for RHBH throwers). If you practice, you can get the timing down again and get better aim.

actually, grip lock happens when the rotational speed is rushed. it releases in the "normal" place when timing is good.

to focus on rotation is sort of like focusing on a baseball swing by trying to pivot fast and twist your upper body.

both a baseball swing and disc golf throw are a system of timed angles and levers and not just a spin the fastest contest.

while a baseball swing does initiate with an aggressive hip pivot, that is the catalyst and not the action. that gets you into position to pull the handle of the bat forward, which will naturally release the bat head into the contact zone. it's the break of the wrists that delivers bat speed and power.

to equate this to a disc golf throw, it's the first rotation (from 180 to 90) that brings the elbow forward and releases the hand to the "point of contact" (think of brad's pulling the handle of the hammer forward analogy here as it's similar to the baseball swing concept). if you pound the hammer through the point of contact that is snap (or the equivalent to the wrist break in a baseball swing).

But what I am doing is just a hyzer release of a fairway driver (leopard, teebird, banshee, etc.) that flips up flat and flies straight. The way I got control is that I'm actually trying to stop my arm swing at the snap, and transfer all of that momentum into the wrist/hand/disc. Of course, my arm keeps going, but the release point/disc direction is very predictable. The turn depends on whether or not I pick the right disc for the wind conditions.

The motion/feel that I am getting is as if I am snapping a towel towards the ground at my feet, or a little to the right and front thereof, with my right shoulder towards the target, and the disc pivots out at almost a right angle to the imaginary towel. So I am no longer trying to accelerate all the way through the snap, I'm not trying to snap the imaginary towel towards the target, and I'm not trying to achieve a flat release. Plus, I'm really taking a LOT of power off the throw.

you are on the right track here. the "trying to stop" thing has probably gotten your rotational timing more in check. to get really big distance gains you will have to develop the timing to flow through where you are "stopping" and learn to pull through the shot while still getting your wrist to release as I have a feeling you are likely getting a lot of palm ejection with this method but not a lot of "fling" on the disc.

if you enter the power zone and approach the point of contact (where you are trying to force a stop) slow and under control you should be able to unload beyond that point without bringing your momentum to a halt. this will require the shoulders to stay under control and the method you are using now should get your body used to that.

 

[Blake_T1]

have worked with a few more people on this technique and i'm getting closer to a few improvements on the method.

i have experimented with the flipback/dan's findings of using a 2-finger backhand grip to work on snap. it can be a bit hard on the wrist but it definitely helps timing/feel since you NEED to be well timed or the disc flies like crap.

the other is working with a stack grip. i've found that most people are able to eliminate slips using this and the few people i've recommended this to have usually added 40-50' using this grip. the downside is that it doesn't mean they're snapping it hard, it just means their throws aren't slipping anymore.

the process i've been having people do is do a few throws focusing on a hard snap with a 2-finger grip followed by switching to a stacked grip and trying to duplicate the timing/motions.

 

[emiller3]

Blake,
Since working these drills, my grip has naturally changed to be primarily focused on my index and middle fingers. My third and fourth fingers provide stability and a little bit of grip, whereas they used to be the focus of my grip.

I haven't tried a stack grip. My fork grip tends to limit my wrange of motion in my wrist. Are there any down sides to throwing with the stack grip?

I think I'm hitting it pretty well now, all of the snap drills have really helped me out.

 

[JR]

Dayum! I futzed with grips and found a way to get the tip of the index finger to stay on the rim with the outer joint to tip of the index finger being in a straight angle toward the rim. I stacked the middle finger and it doesn't seem to be necessary because i can easily flatten the tip of my index finger on my TB. Hot damn there's huge leverage available in this grip for stand still non throws inside the house. Ouch. I'm afraid i'd hurt myself with this grip with a real throw if i pulled hard with the index finger. Something i can't do with a regular grip. It seems that i might not even need the other fingers but that remains to be seen when i can really throw. I was able to push the rim to wing corner of the rear of the disc up with my middle finger for crazy nose down angle. This time i did get wrist breaking back from reach back just behind the left shoulder almost no hip twist back and minimal shoulder twist disc away from the body to close to right pec elbow lead to arm right of the right pec finish. With a violent autowristsnap. If i'd be able to harness that into a full force throw and not injure myself i think i'd jump a hurdle in distance plateaus.

 

[Blake_T1]

Are there any down sides to throwing with the stack grip?

well, you lose some touch and if your mechanics are f'd up it'll make you grip lock. e.g. if you pull wide it'll grip lock, if you don't snap it it'll grip lock, etc.

if your mechanics are sound and your timing is fine it'll increase snap by a lot.

 

[JR]

One personal problem is my injured parts of the arm getting strained from stack grips. That tightens up my forearm muscles and slow the arm pull and elbow chop.

 

[zj10021]

I have been doing something very similar with my grip experiments

I developed a stack grip similar to this that gives me a strong grip

My ring finger is stacked more over my middle than my pinky because it creates a stronger grip for me. The good thing is that I get no slip and can control a disc out to 450ft. This grip works for me because I can't create a lot of pressure on the top of the disc my my thumb because of previous basketball injuries. I can however create a strong grip with the base of my thumb and the stack grip(ring/middle/pink). For me(i think) this grip moves the pivot point from the index/thumb to stack/base of thumb. If I need more power I will adjust my grip to the fan grip to focus more on the index finger, but this really strains my thumb and I can't sustain it for an entire round

 

[whiz]

I have some experience with the two finger grips you are talking about Blake. They really do require the right timing. It can be a bit finicky getting the grip to work but I definitely think it can be beneficial to timing.

 

[Steady 26542]

I tried using the two finger grip today and the disc kept coming out early. It was like I couldn't hold it tight enough. I question if it's really because I typically let the disc just come out of my hand instead of rip out. I have tried to really squeeze the disc just before the rip but it really hasn't made any difference for me distance wise. Plus when I did get a good strong grip on it I had very little control. I typically only get 300' - 325' drives with my QOLS, but I am 57 yrs old... :lol:

 

[Blake_T1]

zj:

the stacked grips i'm talking about involve stacking 1 or more fingers on top of the index finger. in most cases you try to put 2 segments of the index finger on the rim instead of just 1.

I tried using the two finger grip today and the disc kept coming out early.

this means you aren't correctly manipulating the weight shift/momentum/inertia of the disc probably due a mix of timing and body positions.

 

[jenb1]

In regards to what was said about grip lock in the earlier post. Here's my 2 cents. When you start throwing, you'll build a certain timing up to when you can release the disc in (more or less) the direction you want it to go. However, if you are able to increase your rotational speed - perhaps by adding faster hip rotation or shoulder rotation, what you'll find is that you get to that "normal" place much faster and then before you know it, your arm will be well past your intended release angle and you will get what is termed a grip lock. It's that waaaaay off to the right (for RHBH throwers). If you practice, you can get the timing down again and get better aim.

actually, grip lock happens when the rotational speed is rushed. it releases in the "normal" place when timing is good.

to focus on rotation is sort of like focusing on a baseball swing by trying to pivot fast and twist your upper body.

both a baseball swing and disc golf throw are a system of timed angles and levers and not just a spin the fastest contest.

while a baseball swing does initiate with an aggressive hip pivot, that is the catalyst and not the action. that gets you into position to pull the handle of the bat forward, which will naturally release the bat head into the contact zone. it's the break of the wrists that delivers bat speed and power.

to equate this to a disc golf throw, it's the first rotation (from 180 to 90) that brings the elbow forward and releases the hand to the "point of contact" (think of brad's pulling the handle of the hammer forward analogy here as it's similar to the baseball swing concept). if you pound the hammer through the point of contact that is snap (or the equivalent to the wrist break in a baseball swing).

But what I am doing is just a hyzer release of a fairway driver (leopard, teebird, banshee, etc.) that flips up flat and flies straight. The way I got control is that I'm actually trying to stop my arm swing at the snap, and transfer all of that momentum into the wrist/hand/disc. Of course, my arm keeps going, but the release point/disc direction is very predictable. The turn depends on whether or not I pick the right disc for the wind conditions.

The motion/feel that I am getting is as if I am snapping a towel towards the ground at my feet, or a little to the right and front thereof, with my right shoulder towards the target, and the disc pivots out at almost a right angle to the imaginary towel. So I am no longer trying to accelerate all the way through the snap, I'm not trying to snap the imaginary towel towards the target, and I'm not trying to achieve a flat release. Plus, I'm really taking a LOT of power off the throw.

you are on the right track here. the "trying to stop" thing has probably gotten your rotational timing more in check. to get really big distance gains you will have to develop the timing to flow through where you are "stopping" and learn to pull through the shot while still getting your wrist to release as I have a feeling you are likely getting a lot of palm ejection with this method but not a lot of "fling" on the disc.

if you enter the power zone and approach the point of contact (where you are trying to force a stop) slow and under control you should be able to unload beyond that point without bringing your momentum to a halt. this will require the shoulders to stay under control and the method you are using now should get your body used to that.

I got some feedback that I need to get the release to happen off my right shoulder instead of out in front of me, and I tried that and got nearly 50% more distance. Doing that throw, it does sort of feel to me like I am aiming further left and pulling right to compensate. So is it possible that the hit is way further right than I thought, and I am just now finding it? I wouldn't call it "griplock," so much as a much later release, and pulling on a line to get snap off of the right shoulder instead of out in front. Progress or no?

 

[Blake_T1]

i don't understand what you mean by "off the right shoulder."

the hit should be well out in front of you.

from the sound of things you probably weren't getting your lower torso to rotate, probably by having too much weight fixed on a flat foot towards the heel.

lower torso = where the spine intersects the pelvis.

the left side of the body has to chase... but not until the disc is leaving.

 

[JR]

Jen do you mean Feldberg type arm fairly straight down at the right side rip that Feldberg does sometimes? Like a mirror image golf club swing. A thesis by Carlsen measured throws and found statistically meaningful relation between the length of the arm pull and the distance of the throws. From that the comment of Blake in words i don't recall with a meaning like this: top athletes can throw far without moving the arm a lot but it doesn't apply to most so for best efficiency of the throw you should get the arm closer to the target at the rip than you torso.

I watched a vid i can't share of Feldy doing a clinic and he suggests a closer to the body rip point than is mostly recommended here at DGR. If you look from above his rip is at about 9.45 o'clock. Many top players rip that early. So far for me personally about 11 o'clock has worked the best on straight disc pulls. That may change for other pull lines and is something on my to check list because i want to explore the better wrist snap from out of the body reach back to close to the right pec elbow first to right of the body hit. With the inevitable aiming troubles. Just to see if i could get big snap and more D this way. I am not straying away from straight line arm pulls for accuracy shots.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think Jen worded it funny, but Blake is correct about everything, and JR about getting the disc closer to the target than the body. The advice was to get the disc and elbow further forward of the right shoulder before the shoulders open because she was strong arming it and starting the outward motion early. Its basically like in the Masterbeato vid when Dan says "when you go from back here to up here that adds anywhere from 60-100' or more."

 

[Blake_T1]

the evolved method is on its way.

finally got over my latest ACL sprain and then illness and got to throw a few. the result: 350' right pec drills with rocs after less than 10 tries (first time out throwing in 5 weeks)

 

[DiscJay]

AWESOME!!!!! Can't wait. I'm hoping it is the key to unlocking that final piece I need. Waiting with baited breath here!!!

 

[scoopa]

Are we talking the out motion here? Either way I'm psyched to learn some new stuff!

 

[ReDisculous]

That sounds amazing Blake, I eagerly look forward to your next write up.