The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[Blake_T1]

this does cover the out-motion.

it does require the hammer pound feeling as a "primer" since it builds the feel/coordination on when to apply force.

the downside is that i'm finding the learning curve becomes steeper... and it won't help anyone that didn't get benefit from the hammer pound.

 

[scoopa]

I'll try it out when it is ready for sure!

The hammer pound drills have reshaped every part of my game. I mean putting, mid range shots, and of course driving. It all boiled down to teaching me how to manipulate the discs weight by bringing the BACK of the disc around and forward around my index and thumb causing a BIG moment of acceleration.

The part where it revolutionized my putting happened when I was goofing around doing pivot-hammer pounds. The "flip-back" drill. I had my practice basket near by so I did the same motion but with a looser index thumb lock. The disc jetted around and exploded out of my hand in a tight line.

Where I am lacking is adding more acceleration to the pivot. I feel like it is right under my nose. I know it has to do with setting up the right arm and shoulder angles to have a meaningful pull back that accelerates the disc around the pivot point. I see it in every good thrower.

The biggest thing, I'd be willing to bet, that is keeping anyone from being successful with the hammer pound is coming in to hard. If you put to much force in before the pivot is about to begin you'll miss it.

If I had to describe what the out motion should be like I would say: Getting in positions that allow you to continue leveraging the disc around the pivot. Right now I feel like I am leveraging the disc INTO the pivot. Not INTO, AROUND, and OUT of the pivot.

Man, I hope some of that makes logical sense

 

[Blake_T1]

The biggest thing, I'd be willing to bet, that is keeping anyone from being successful with the hammer pound is coming in to hard. If you put to much force in before the pivot is about to begin you'll miss it.

agreed. this is why i have people do the drills on a vertical plane to start with. letting gravity drop the hammer and learning how to pound it at the end of its natural drop.

If I had to describe what the out motion should be like I would say: Getting in positions that allow you to continue leveraging the disc around the pivot. Right now I feel like I am leveraging the disc INTO the pivot. Not INTO, AROUND, and OUT of the pivot.

this is exactly right and why the hammer pound by itself is flawed. using the stack grip helps.



i will be up for a bit tonight. if anyone who actually has the hammer pound down and wants to learn the next bit i am willing to cover it over the phone. first one to PM me and waits for my reply with my phone number will get it gone through. depending upon how long it takes will depend upon how many people i can step through this, but i don't really want to do it more than 3 times.

 

[JR]

I hope a written description and perhaps a video comes out of these drills

 

[Blake_T1]

had one taker on the technique tonight. hopefully they'll share their results.

 

[masterbeato]

I will share my results.

I am still working on it but i am now to the point where i can do it every time with success and shaping EXIT angles pretty well with it. Blake showed me this and he had a little bit of trouble with the exiting angles and they all came out on a bit of a hyzer and another problem was he would griplock about 15 degrees, and as did i for a while than figured a difference in release points.

The first release point i tweeked was for my line drives since i was griplocking them a bit. However Blake did say it might not add to my MAX D and he was correct because when I threw really hard the disc would get too much spin and just die out at the end and no longer glide, and the MAX D was not any easier to get to than my regular throw. However, It does make everything 450' and in a lot easier, but still difficult to range (out throwing 475' holes on flat ground at 60% kinda thing). I do find upshots to be increasingly difficult to range, but really accurate (hitting my lines and coming out on line perfectly everytime) but out throwing like a mofo.

I fixed the over throwing from 310' and in by using a weaq grip and an armpit reach back basically heh or i just stand still everything with a wasp or spike or knife hyzer stuff.

that is all i got out of it so far and for people succeeding with this technique this is what you should expect, and if you do not experience what i have experienced and written in this post, than you are not doing it correctly i garuntee it!

Thanks Blake.

 

[aDave]

when you're working on the release angles, how are you doing that?
what are you thinking about?

 

[JR]

Results are nice but i'm sure we all would like to hear about how they are achieved. What changed in the form or ideas or drills or whatever it was that changed?

 

[whiz]

Well, I was the one taker and I had some success working on this new technique. I will write my thoughts later this evening when I am not on my phone.

 

[aDave]

Whiz...and you can be sure that I will bug you about it next time I see you...
.

 

[Triflusal]

Well, I was the one taker and I had some success working on this new technique. I will write my thoughts later this evening when I am not on my phone.

Come on man, don't leave us hangin

 

[Lithicon]

Lol, well you know if he told you how the drill changed that would be telling how to do it. Can't do that!

 

[whiz]

So, I am on somewhat of a vacation where I am far away from any courses and the temptation to play rounds and with the availability of open fields I am getting in some good field practice. When Blake and I first talked about his new conceptualization I was able to get the gist pretty quickly but it was immediately apparent that it will take some work to get the feel consistently. To mimic what he is getting at you can go back to the classic drill of pulling a disc through a throwing motion with your chest about 10 inches from a wall. Try to keep the back of your hand against the wall as long as possible as you are pulling forward. This will give you an idea of the general motions/body position necessary for the timing.

The first day after talking to Blake I got out and played a quick speed round as I did not have time for much else (plus the fact that it was about 95 degrees in Charlotte) . I was able to get a decent feel with putters and midranges but drivers (especially speed 10+) were almost impossible to hold onto. To get on top of and leverage drivers Blake suggested a low pull line at roughly belt to navel height. This is a very different style of throw for me and will take a while to get used to. I did have one throw with a putter that felt great (and landed about 2' from basket 8 at renny) as well as a throw with a comet that just about hit chains on hole 9 at renny.

I will update with more feedback over the next couple days as I keep practicing but my general observations of my progress so far:

1. I did NOT have a good understanding/feel for the hammer pound. My conception of the hammer pound was of an active wrist opening. The wrist ACTUALLY should be loose and the acceleration of the forearm allows the wrist to open and the disc to pivot. This is crucial.

2. You have to have a tight pull. Blake's description of this concept is to basically throw with your thumb being pointed away from the target as long as possible while the base of your thumb travels on a straight line toward said target. If you mess around with this a bit you discover you need to have a very tight pull and have a correctly timed (late) shoulder opening. If you pull farther away from your body the wrist will open too soon and prevent the snap. The disc should come into the crook of your arm before your accelerate and start the pull.

This is what I am getting so far and Blake or Dan can reply and correct any of my assumptions if they are incorrect. I am getting a good feel for the throw and the weight of the disc right now though and I am very excited about getting out for fieldwork.

 

[Blake_T1]

Thanks for the write-up, Whiz.

what you are finding with drivers vs. mids/putters is correct. basically, you are feeling the weakness of the grip you are able to get on a wide rimmed river. did you try the stacked grip to compensate for that?

Blake's description of this concept is to basically throw with your thumb being pointed away from the target as long as possible while the base of your thumb travels on a straight line toward said target.

This is a good description.

basically, a lot of this boils down to a video that brad walker made a long time ago but with the revisions in the concept to the hammer head as written in the early parts of this thread. the actual hammer pound isn't really part of this, but it's sort of necessary to build the coordination and feel for how to make this work. you have to be able to dribble a basketball before you can (be coordinated enough to) learn to dribble between your legs or behind your back. the hammer drills are basically teaching you how to dribble. this is sort of putting what you develop through the hammer drills into motion.

people often ask "why not just teach newbies how to snap it from the start?" answer: i've never come across a newbie that had the hand/finger/wrist dexterity to be able to do the things necessary to snap it out of the gate, just as i've never come across someone who could dribble between their legs or behind their back proficiently the day the first time they pick up a basketball and learn to dribble.

i'm not ready to post the drill. i need to refine its teachings and wording as i have more hands on experiences working with players on this.

if people really want this to "sink in" they will need to have the feels/fundamentals down.

1. I did NOT have a good understanding/feel for the hammer pound. My conception of the hammer pound was of an active wrist opening. The wrist ACTUALLY should be loose and the acceleration of the forearm allows the wrist to open and the disc to pivot. This is crucial.

the hammer pound is more of teaching how to manipulate the disc's weight shift and inertia and redirect this as force. the sentence
beginning with "the wrist actually" is correct, but i would probably replace "loose" with "fluid." the whole reason for coming up with this drill is so that people will think less and do more. building feel takes time and reps, making minor adjustments that help you improve as you go.


if you really want to try and figure out some of this, dig up the old threads and youtube videos where brad walker has that disc with the piece cut out of it and any reference to ted williams' baseball swing. this is a refined methodology of this.

 

[JR]

I've revisited a looser two finger grip with a loose (fluid? not sure where the dividing line is strength wise or if i even have enough wrist strength to not be only loose) and have gotten familiar results with one improvement. I've trained finger and hand squeezing strength so it's gotten a little better. I have trouble getting the disc to pivot freely with a three finger power grip vs two fingers. And it's even better for the two finger grip if i set the bead or bottom of the disc to the outermost joint of the index and middle fingers. Doing this allows the disc to pivot much more freely than with any version i've tried so far. I don't think i get the disc to pivot fully but it is better than usual. I do have trouble stopping the wrist. it is probably because the stopping action requires a lot of muscle tension in the damaged area of my arm and the ever present muscle shaking also hurts so i probably loosen up subconsciously. Pinching is on and off regarding late timing after the disc has exited the palm. Trying to work on this on Tuesday had my arm somewhat sore and tired and nerves hurting playing on Thursday. So i imagine i got at least a workout if not some results.

I don't think my results are that spectacular regarding distance but the spin seems to be better on some throws at least. I really need to take a high speed video to see where i'm at now. Was at 14 revolutions per second last fall in cool weather. I should do better from muscle power increase and flight improvement point of view. I think the Tuesday field practice session yielded more 330' or slightly longer ESP 176 Comet throws. That didn't need as much initial hyzer as usual and faded a little less than usual. Marginal but detectable differences.

How would one know if one had a loose wrist vs a fluid wrist? I don't think i was really resisting the bending of the wrist back well enough.

I also think i could do better in getting the disc closer to the right pec by taking advice from masterbeato. I recall him writing that one should punch the elbow forward like putting it through a piece of veneer. So far i've mostly tried to late accelerate so late that i'm not getting the elbow forward enough in time before my momentum from legs forces me to turn toward the target. On some throws especially 170'+ stand still approaches i sometimes automatically create so much arm speed while being loose that the arm accelerates earlier and to a higher speed than usual and i do get the elbow farther out with the disc closer to thew right pec. On these throws i don't turn toward the target prior to the hit so my right side faces the target and i only turn a little toward the target from the arm momentum in the follow through. This way i aim with the arm pull line being straight and minimize momentum and moving parts to increase accuracy and repeatability. If only i could do the same with running throws. My arm is looser in the muscles throughout the stand still throw. I suspect i can't maintain similar looseness running when i have to grip the disc tighter to not let it fall.

J-La has commented that the Doss type of arm swing forward before reaching back can create havoc to form. It also does that on gripping strength at times and it forces you to grip tighter in order not to loose angles on the disc or grip which automatically increases the risk of early slips or at least micro slips. The irritation for me is that i can't smash the snap as well timing or arm moving speed acceleration wise late in the throw if i don't do that pre throw wiggle. I think i might have to limit the wiggle to pre throw routine and practice a no wiggle throw a lot more to guarantee looser arm muscles (faster arm motion) while not sacrificing gripping strength on any throw. The fact that i don't notice slips or weakened gripping power in each throw does not mean that i don't suffer from both on each throw.

The increased finger strength and the Tuesday attempts at utilizing it lead to the longest approach form throws i've ever had. It also certainly hurts in my index finger :-( This is for a guy who has thrown a single finger toss to 400' with a fast driver with skipping to 415' with Westside King 166 VIP. Not a repeatable result. I was hanging on for dear life on that throw and managed to get only a micro slip with decent aim. Earlier i just did not have the maximum finger strength necessary to pull that off. I still can't do that without good warming up and a good day with more than usual rest. Even once let alone every time so it would seem that i need to keep on working those fingers and hand out.

 

[DiscJay]

So Blake and Whiz, I have been working with the info in Whiz's post and I am getting a good, tight stretch in the back of my hand/wrist when I really get the disc to the crook of my arm. Does this sound right? So far I am throwing as far with my putters as before, just with 50% of the effort. I started really slow to get the feel for keeping the thumb pointed away from the target line as long as possible. I have picked up the speed a bit every 20 or so throws. I'll probably wait two or three weeks to really ramp the speed back up to get the good clean slower reps in.

I am definitely feeling the pivot of the disc this way. Right now I am having to use the stack grip towards the end of a session to eliminate early slips.

 

[Blake_T1]

I am getting a good, tight stretch in the back of my hand/wrist when I really get the disc to the crook of my arm. Does this sound right? So far I am throwing as far with my putters as before, just with 50% of the effort.

Yes, that sounds correct. The d with less effort is also consistent. pull line height is really key with this. if you pull too high you won't be able to hang onto the disc, so the pull line must naturally lower in order to obtain leverage.

if the pull line is low and the slips are still happening it's usually a timing issue. you really have to be relaxed until you feel the tension in your wrist want to "unload" on its own.

How would one know if one had a loose wrist vs a fluid wrist?

a loose wrist is acted upon completely (flaps around) by the disc's inertia/momentum. a fluid wrist moves with the disc's inertia/momentum but is always a "part" of the motion, acting as a guide until it unloads.

 

[emiller3]

How would one know if one had a loose wrist vs a fluid wrist?

a loose wrist is acted upon completely (flaps around) by the disc's inertia/momentum. a fluid wrist moves with the disc's inertia/momentum but is always a "part" of the motion, acting as a guide until it unloads.

I feel like this is a major distinction. I lost some of my D and a ton of my accuracy when I regressed temporarily from a fluid but active wrist to a loose wrist. You need to be aware of your wrist and purposeful with what it's doing and not just let it flail or swing around completely on its own.

I too identify with that stretching feeling in the back of the wrist, it's a distinct feeling that I had never experienced at the 400' plateau, and I assume that it's key to imparting the force of your momentum onto the disc.

 

[JR]

How would one know if one had a loose wrist vs a fluid wrist?

a loose wrist is acted upon completely (flaps around) by the disc's inertia/momentum. a fluid wrist moves with the disc's inertia/momentum but is always a "part" of the motion, acting as a guide until it unloads.

I feel like this is a major distinction. I lost some of my D and a ton of my accuracy when I regressed temporarily from a fluid but active wrist to a loose wrist. You need to be aware of your wrist and purposeful with what it's doing and not just let it flail or swing around completely on its own.

I too identify with that stretching feeling in the back of the wrist, it's a distinct feeling that I had never experienced at the 400' plateau, and I assume that it's key to imparting the force of your momentum onto the disc.

Allright. I have lately tried loose wrist over stiff wrist which is more than fluid wrist i think in my case. The trouble for me is that i've definitely felt fluid wrist and it hasn't really given me a lot of extra distance and flight line wise it seems the same for me to loose wrist. So stiff wristing (pun intended) is worse for me than loose or fluid wristedness. And i just can't get a lot at all or often at all with the active wrist extension and even less with wrist stopping beyond say 200'. Flight problems to longer ranges may also suffer from gripping. Despite that fluke success with a King to 400' with one finger grip.

I think i need to work out for years with weights to see if i can build up muscle mass and the tendons to handle the shaking of a throw to see if i can get improvements there. Also i need to develop at least equal snap to Doss type of arm pre swing without that pre swing to see if it'll help too. Plenty of field work left to do for me. I'm thinking i need to fiddle with the timing of resisting the bending back of the wrist and pinching to a little earlier. Feldy taught in his clinic last year that you need to command the muscles ahead of time because in the time that it takes for the command to travel from the brain to the arm the arm has moved a lot. I also need to train punching the elbow forward faster earlier. I think i will get at least some sort of improvements in the long term if only i could put in the practice right away. Darn working. Then filming becomes a drag too but i will get there yet. It just might take me at least the next season i'm afraid because there's so much to tweak.

I would imagine that emiller3 being at a higher altitude than me is correct about the 400' for him. I've felt the tendons on the back of the wrist bending at 380' at sea level.

 

[DiscJay]

I am getting a good, tight stretch in the back of my hand/wrist when I really get the disc to the crook of my arm. Does this sound right? So far I am throwing as far with my putters as before, just with 50% of the effort.

Yes, that sounds correct. The d with less effort is also consistent. pull line height is really key with this. if you pull too high you won't be able to hang onto the disc, so the pull line must naturally lower in order to obtain leverage.

if the pull line is low and the slips are still happening it's usually a timing issue. you really have to be relaxed until you feel the tension in your wrist want to "unload" on its own.

Ah Hah, that would make sense as I had adopted the high, Avery Jenkins, shoulder height pull line. I will try lowering the pull line and see what happens. I'm really excited to try this tomorrow. Thanks for everything!!