ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[itlnstln]

Is the Postman is an improvement from Starting the Lawnmower or the Swim Move?

(At the risk of making a big internet mistake...)

Neither, it's a stop the front shoulder drill

 

[Nick Carroll]

(At the risk of making a big internet mistake...)

Neither, it's a stop the front shoulder drill

I'm in the "neither" camp, too. Looks like 3 different drills to me, none of them an improvement over the other.

Regarding the source of Jaani's original contention of the Swim Move, based on what he's said in his videos, is that he thinks the off arm is the least important aspect of the backhand throw. Not that it's completely unimportant, but he feels that a lot of other things need to be fixed before worrying about the off arm - unless the off arm is specifically doing something detrimental to the throw. But for Jaani, in and of itself the off arm moving in sync with the throwing arm, or preceding the throwing arm, is not a fundamental concern in the throw.

 

[Jaani]

Is the Postman an improvement from Starting the Lawnmower or the Swim Move?

Did you just make up a quote from me compiling it from different sentences to suite you? I never wrote that sentence.

And like others have stated, this has nothing to do with YOUR swim move nor the lawn mower. The off arm is not moving in the postman, that is why I say to hold on to something. I believe the Swim move is a passive one, something that happens if the arm hangs lose as the body turns. It looks like the arm is moved when it only works naturally so, if it's let to work.

...I was already done and ready continue with my life, but looks like made enemies for life here. Nice.

 

[Brychanus]

FWIW @Jaani not everyone appears to be an enemy here, and I appreciate it any time people actually hash their stuff out. That's where learning also can occur for wondering eyes and onlookers.

FWIW2 @Jaani whether you watch it or not, I thought that while Kuoksa made some even-keeled remarks on specific mechanics points, I also felt that there were some undertones in parts of the video that I would not have appreciated myself. Just discussing the mechanics & concepts & comparing and contrasting would have been fine. I don't know that we need "hit pieces" as much as sober discussions and data in the end.

FWIW3 @sidewinder22 and @Jaani both, it's really not my business, but also I really hope you guys find a way to hash it out. Looks like it'd be tough to find a way back and meet in the middle, but you obviously both care a lot about disc golf and its growth at the bottom of it.

Despite the tension, there have been interesting points about specific mechanics concepts and how to teach them in this thread.

 

[Jaani]

I only care about people avoiding the same mistakes I made when I still had the chance to learn the game and play competitively. I can provide some insight from experience, since I have gone through all the troubles and flaws known to man. And tried to fix them, too. Getting analysis paralysis. This is why I'm against stacking up dozens of deliberate moves to fix a simple flaw. The only aim for a disc golfer should be to let the body work as it should, and let go. We have to get over the restrictions of technique to reach the flow state, where you just execute by instinct. Adding conscious moves and self-awareness is doing the contrary.

 

[sidewinder22]

Did you just make up a quote from me compiling it from different sentences to suite you? I never wrote that sentence.

And like others have stated, this has nothing to do with YOUR swim move nor the lawn mower. The off arm is not moving in the postman, that is why I say to hold on to something. I believe the Swim move is a passive one, something that happens if the arm hangs lose as the body turns. It looks like the arm is moved when it only works naturally so, if it's let to work.

...I was already done and ready continue with my life, but looks like made enemies for life here. Nice.

I didn't make up any of your words, you can see your original quote if you click on it, I paraphrased it to help discussion (cleaned out some of the BS). Anyway moving along...

Since you seem to be familiar (have strong opinion) with my Swim Move Drill, I was just curious on your thoughts on it compared to your Postman drill and Starting the Lawnmower which appear to have some similarities but also some differences. I think you have some misconceptions about the swim move and focused on a very tiny part of it at the end and not taking into account the move from the beginning of the backswing. I also have different variations of the drill.

The first vid is timestamped to relevant part:

 

[itlnstln]

FWIW @Jaani not everyone appears to be an enemy here, and I appreciate it any time people actually hash their stuff out. That's where learning also can occur for wondering eyes and onlookers.

FWIW2 @Jaani whether you watch it or not, I thought that while Kuoksa made some even-keeled remarks on specific mechanics points, I also felt that there were some undertones in parts of the video that I would not have appreciated myself. Just discussing the mechanics & concepts & comparing and contrasting would have been fine. I don't know that we need "hit pieces" as much as sober discussions and data in the end.

FWIW3 @sidewinder22 and @Jaani both, it's really not my business, but also I really hope you guys find a way to hash it out. Looks like it'd be tough to find a way back and meet in the middle, but you obviously both care a lot about disc golf and its growth at the bottom of it.

Despite the tension, there have been interesting points about specific mechanics concepts and how to teach them in this thread.

+1 to all of this. As adults, you two (sidewinder and Janni) can choose to, or not to, hug it out. However, *please* take the discussion to DM. It would be a tragedy if a moderator felt like they needed to take action and we lose both your presences here

 

[Jaani]

I'm glad to be banned! Less social media means more social life.

 

[BrotherDave]

I only care about people avoiding the same mistakes I made when I still had the chance to learn the game and play competitively. I can provide some insight from experience, since I have gone through all the troubles and flaws known to man. And tried to fix them, too. Getting analysis paralysis. This is why I'm against stacking up dozens of deliberate moves to fix a simple flaw. The only aim for a disc golfer should be to let the body work as it should, and let go. We have to get over the restrictions of technique to reach the flow state, where you just execute by instinct. Adding conscious moves and self-awareness is doing the contrary.

As someone that has been researching form since the dark ages of DGCR and discgolfreview, i.e. before the dg boom on YouTube, your videos have been fantastic for the reasons you stated here. You have an elite talent for visually expressing athletic movements in very digestible media. You've made the lightbulb go off in my head more times with these short vids of yours than all the walls of text I used to read on forums or oldschool dg vids combined. So thanks for that.

But listen, you've got to have some thicker skin and just ignore people. I'm not saying you can't handle banter, I'm just saying that humanity by and large rides the short bus and you shouldn't expect too much out of people. Peace.

 

[sidewinder22]

+1 to all of this. As adults, you two (sidewinder and Janni) can choose to, or not to, hug it out. However, *please* take the discussion to DM. It would be a tragedy if a moderator felt like they needed to take action and we lose both your presences here

I was just asking Jaani's honest opinion about technique. Maybe his thoughts had changed or not. IDK.

 

[Jaani]

As I understand it, the swim move is a less pronounced version of the Double Move by SlingShot. Both can be achieved not by moving the arm but by letting it swing as it does if the body moves a certain way.

I toyed around with different hip moves the other day. I don't have the video anymore, but I looked pretty much like Paul McBeth with the off-arm swing and "swim." It happened purely by accident as I swung my hips forward mid-stride. I emphasised the hip bump, and I was pretty early with it, but sure enough, my off-arm swung forward, too. And as I didn't tense it, it got left behind as the body rotated open.

And every time someone points out how I "use" my off arm (it's most often really passive unless I throw hard standstills), it's only following the moves of my pelvis—going down and forward (the direction of the throw) but a fraction before the pelvis SEEMS to move. I have no data to back this claim, but it could be because the arm is lighter; it also moves faster, making it seem like it starts the move when it is still a reactionary, involuntary move.

This is why I don't believe the off arm does anything but indicate the moves in the body. Moving the arm wastes energy and focus because it's only a reactionary move that doesn't need our attention. I also asked Seppo about his off-arm, and he said he never even thought about moving it... but as you can see, it moves A LOT and is pronounced "move".

At least, that is how my body works, and it could be how most of the bodies work when we let them work. We can't time all the dozens of moves perfectly. We have to let the body work for us. I know it's fun and enlightening to see how the body works and moves and all the details, but to execute a shot, we must let all the moves happen as they do without us forcing them. Like The Double Move, the Swim move seems to be forced and unnecessary, even if the timing is perfectly trained and works for Paul and Drew. Most of us aren't that good and will never be.

 

[sidewinder22]

As I understand it, the swim move is a less pronounced version of the Double Move by SlingShot. Both can be achieved not by moving the arm but by letting it swing as it does if the body moves a certain way.

I toyed around with different hip moves the other day. I don't have the video anymore, but I looked pretty much like Paul McBeth with the off-arm swing and "swim." It happened purely by accident as I swung my hips forward mid-stride. I emphasised the hip bump, and I was pretty early with it, but sure enough, my off-arm swung forward, too. And as I didn't tense it, it got left behind as the body rotated open.

And every time someone points out how I "use" my off arm (it's most often really passive unless I throw hard standstills), it's only following the moves of my pelvis—going down and forward (the direction of the throw) but a fraction before the pelvis SEEMS to move. I have no data to back this claim, but it could be because the arm is lighter; it also moves faster, making it seem like it starts the move when it is still a reactionary, involuntary move.

This is why I don't believe the off arm does anything but indicate the moves in the body. Moving the arm wastes energy and focus because it's only a reactionary move that doesn't need our attention. I also asked Seppo about his off-arm, and he said he never even thought about moving it... but as you can see, it moves A LOT and is pronounced "move".

At least, that is how my body works, and it could be how most of the bodies work when we let them work. We can't time all the dozens of moves perfectly. We have to let the body work for us. I know it's fun and enlightening to see how the body works and moves and all the details, but to execute a shot, we must let all the moves happen as they do without us forcing them. Like The Double Move, the Swim move seems to be forced and unnecessary, even if the timing is perfectly trained and works for Paul and Drew. Most of us aren't that good and will never be.

Did you watch the videos in my post?

 

[Jaani]

Did you watch the videos in my post?

I did.

 

[sidewinder22]

As I understand it, the swim move... can be achieved not by moving the arm but by letting it swing as it does if the body moves a certain way.

In the Whip Step vid I specifically said that you don't need to really move the arm, but it's the shoulder.

In the second part of the Swim Move vid my arm doesn't move, the hand is staying leveraged on the rear thigh like Marc Jarvis or One Arm Hammer Throw.

 

[Jaani]

I guess I'm confused because it seems you are teaching something you call a move without it being a conscious move. That is why I don't teach off arm (at least not yet) because I don't want people to start moving it, when all it needs to do is stay out of the way and relaxed.

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess I'm confused because it seems you are teaching something you call a move without it being a conscious move. That is why I don't teach off arm (at least not yet) because I don't want people to start moving it, when all it needs to do is stay out of the way and relaxed.

I don't teach only one way to do some things. Maybe the word move is getting lost in translation. Here I'm giving the rear arm a task - to not spill the beverage, so it's staying out of the way/not disrupting the flow.

 

[Jaani]

I may not have perfect English, but I am confident that I understand the language sufficiently and do not feel the need to hide behind any shortcomings.

It appears that we have differing teaching philosophies. In my opinion, if something does not need to be addressed, such as the off arm in a throw, I prefer not to draw attention to it or teach specific movements to keep it still. Instead, I would teach the student to simply let the arm move naturally, which would result in it remaining still until it needs to move. Why waste time and energy focusing on something that doesn't require conscious effort?

For example, if the thrower can keep their off arm relaxed and out of the way, it will naturally move in the correct manner without needing to be consciously controlled. Is it worth using valuable time and effort to teach something that doesn't require it, or is it better to address the issue only if the student is actively causing problems by moving the arm incorrectly?

In my opinion, emphasizing all the ways to "not move" the off arm can serve as a distraction from simply allowing it to move naturally.

 

[Brychanus]

@Jaani @sidewinder22

Thank you both for this last exchange, I am already learning again where differences in opinions are, and some of them appear to be in instruction styles or preferences.

I did want to mention since I am familiar with both of your content and learned remotely from Sidewinder despite all odds: I'm not sure you disagree about the role of the rear arm mechanically as I personally first might have thought, though there are interesting things to talk about there.

On the instruction end, clearly different things work for different people. I think we all know that. Some people seem to respond ok mostly ignoring the rear arm. Sounds like Jaani has encountered some number of them, or it has somehow worked out focusing on other things. Sidewinder tends to work on transition moves from a balance and posture control perspective that also involves the rear arm not getting in the way/naturally doing what it does. In my case I had such poor natural balance in athletic stance moving sideways that the balance and glass drills had a clear effect on my overall control, accuracy, and "low effort" power. In contrast, I've also seen sidewinder just ignore the rear arm completely if it's not getting in the way of the rest of the move. So it's possible that you both might take different strategies to address a similar problem, and some of it is the same or similar, and some of it is different.

FWIW I personally also had to worry less and less about the rear arm the more I did other natural "whole body" athletic moves that helped make up for the fact that I was not athletic in the first place. The "glass" training has just mostly taken over, and I've stopped micromanaging it (for now at least), and sidewinder hasn't said much about it recently while focusing on other "big" aspects of the overall move.

Interestingly in the very first posts in my own form critique thread showed that the rear arm action was okish. My arm "understood" what to do at some level, but man what a journey we had ahead for me otherwise. It still does that 'natural' move, but in the context of a gradually improving overall move.

I do think there are a few interesting differences worth talking about otherwise and I hope you do here. I just wanted to point out once again that there is the possibility that different instruction styles can potentially work for different people at different times in different ways in different contexts.

If there are substantive disagreements about mechanics it's sometimes helpful to talk about them. I do with Sidewinder and several other people now. I would hope that could include Jaani. I understand that not everyone likes to talk about them, there are very real disagreements that only data and modeling can resolve, and some people only care about coaching and not mechanics details at a certain level for one reason another. I'm increasingly aware that people coaching others have wildly different "mental models" for how everything works and how to organize growth and training and coaching.

Is this ok? I'm just glad there are people out there who are invested this much about disc golf. You both have been at this for a much longer time than me. I'm going to be a student forever. I learn when I see exchanges like this, so thank you again.

 

[timothy42b]

<snip>

This is why I'm against stacking up dozens of deliberate moves to fix a simple flaw. The only aim for a disc golfer should be to let the body work as it should, and let go. We have to get over the restrictions of technique to reach the flow state, where you just execute by instinct. Adding conscious moves and self-awareness is doing the contrary.

Snip and bold are mine. This is not a criticism of Jaani, just an explanation of a different concept.

This sound like an Inner Tennis approach, and it is a worthy goal. It is great when it works, and it does for most successful athletes.

The way my brain is wired, it doesn't work at all, and leads only to frustration, blame, and guilt. Possibly my learning style can be reprogrammed, there is some debate over how fixed these styles are. Brychanus may know more. Regardless, my progress has generally been better with the analytical, method-based, rather than results-based approach.

 

[Brychanus]

The way my brain is wired, it doesn't work at all, and leads only to frustration, blame, and guilt. Possibly my learning style can be reprogrammed, there is some debate over how fixed these styles are. Brychanus may know more. Regardless, my progress has generally been better with the analytical, method-based, rather than results-based approach.

Just wanted to mention here too because I think timothy and I end up having a lot in common in part of our learning styles:

I really think what drills did/do for me was just build up a bigger and bigger reservoir of ways to move. So did aggressive (and fluid) WeckMethod club swinging in all kinds of ways. I'm still young enough that I can take a bit of punishment that I probably won't be able to as well in even a few years. My motion fluency has gone up, albeit imperfectly. I still remember my dance instructor noticing that my posture control was improving in the Waltz and I sheepishly told her it was because I was trying to learn to throw frisbees. She (in her early 70s and having seen it all) just smiled and said "many of the people who best learn the Waltz in adulthood started as golfers."

It was like building up a huge and increasing mound of clay. Someone like Sidewinder can provide the clay, and then be the sculptor. Sometimes the coach benefits from the student showing up with their own clay - the dance "clicks" came infrequently for me, but then all of the sudden something about athletic and dance posture control started to sync up and I keep finding little things every day. I'll never understand it fully. And no two people are alike.

But the reason I vomit words everywhere and like equations and math is just part of how my brain works too. Those two things exist more at peace now with each other because I can compartmentalize it (and I definitely could NOT at first, like at ALL).

For other people, drills just seem to get them confused no matter what you do. I needed tons of corrections just to drill correctly. I don't know if it is a fundamental person difference, or a practice difference, or a background difference (as usual probably a bit of everything). Then at a certain point I was just moving more "freely." I don't really know when that was.

When I'm throwing, I'm throwing. I get loose, and let myself be a little wild while opening up floodgates for new learning, but my wildness decreases over time. Being open to being wild helps some people learn. But apparently not everyone.

When I'm sitting at this computer avoiding other work for a moment, I'm processing and visualizing and trying out different "fits" for the current move. Trying a little motion drill for 10 seconds. Looking at a little thing I've seen 100 times before (and often something Sidewinder or SocraDeez or others or elsewhere had pointed out months ago) and then going "oh s***! That might be it!" Part body, part brain.

Some people have aphantasia. They don't "see" anything in their heads.

Some people have anauralia. They have no inner voice.*

Those people are all around you being successful in all kinds of ways. How?

What are the motor learning equivalents? I don't really know.

Everyone's different. I think that's ok.

*This is one of my favorite emerging literatures anywhere in science. As someone who is highly visually and auditory "in my head," I found it shocking to learn about a few years ago.