Time saving provisional.

[cheesethin]

Interesting thing came up at a tourney this weekend.

Tee shots on a fairly straight hole with a double mando 45m/150' from tee. Compulsory re-throw from previous lie in force for missed mandos (no DZ, waiver granted). I throw first and I hit one of the mando tree's branches on the bad side and from the tee we can't see where the disc falls - could be safe or equally likely it could have crossed the mando line.

Guy on my card tries to insist that I re-tee/throw a provisional immediately in case I have missed the mando. I don't want to, I'm happy to let the rest of the card throw and then go have a look at where my disc ended up. He references pace of play/time-saving as to why I should throw a provisional. He seemed to be saying I was obliged to immediately re-throw.

What are people's thoughts?

 

[_MTL_]

Interesting thing came up at a tourney this weekend.

Tee shots on a fairly straight hole with a double mando 45m/150' from tee. Compulsory re-throw from previous lie in force for missed mandos (no DZ, waiver granted). I throw first and I hit one of the mando tree's branches on the bad side and from the tee we can't see where the disc falls - could be safe or equally likely it could have crossed the mando line.

Guy on my card tries to insist that I re-tee/throw a provisional immediately in case I have missed the mando. I don't want to, I'm happy to let the rest of the card throw and then go have a look at where my disc ended up. He references pace of play/time-saving as to why I should throw a provisional. He seemed to be saying I was obliged to immediately re-throw.

What are people's thoughts?

Throwing a provisional is never required and only helps the thrower. If you choose not to do so, that's your decision.

 

[F. Howl]

...I don't want to, I'm happy to let the rest of the card throw and then go have a look at where my disc ended up. ...
What are people's thoughts?

Why didn't you want to? Did you want to use that same disc?

 

[cheesethin]

Why didn't you want to? Did you want to use that same disc?

Good question, a few different intertwined things all contributed to me not wanting to:

I hadn't thought at all about throwing again immediately so his insistence slightly panicked me - I didn't want to throw feeling rushed and pushed in to it.

The suggestion that I was obliged to slightly pressed a 'no one tells me what to do' button. Backed up by my believe that provisionals are at the players discretion not the cards insistence.

I wanted a bit of time just to get over my 'well that was a crappy shot' emotions and compose myself. Two of the other players were deep into their own heads, giving themselves a hard time and being angry with themselves over their performance (one was the guy insisting I should throw again) - I didn't want to join them, I wanted to maintain my happy head space.

And I thought, as you said, that I might want to throw the same disc again. Or possibly that I didn't want that option removed from me (feeling rushed into a disc choice), just because this guy was insisting on something I didn't think was obligatory.

That's what I was feeling.

 

[F. Howl]

I feel ya, and it is your option.

809.02 Provisional Throw
Last updated: Saturday, March 3, 2018 - 12:37

A. A provisional throw is an extra throw that is not added to a player's score if it is not ultimately used in the completion of the hole. The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it.

B. Provisional throws are used:
1. To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:
a. The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost, out-of-
bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,
b. The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.
The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the
group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

2. To appeal a ruling when there are different resulting lies. A set of provisional throws
may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when a player in the group
disagrees with a group decision and an Official is not readily available, or if a player in
the group wishes to appeal the decision of an Official. The scores from both sets of
throws are recorded. Once the appeal has been resolved, only the score from the
correct set of throws is counted.

 

[araytx]

Provisional is always the thrower's option. It was probably good practice in this case; however, if you don't want to take a provisional, you don't have to.

 

[cheesethin]

Provisional is always the thrower's option. It was probably good practice in this case; however, if you don't want to take a provisional, you don't have to.

I was pretty sure it was my option, just got thrown by his insistence. And possibly if he had said something like "do you want to throw a provisional to save us time" I would have been more receptive. But thinking about it afterwards, the mando was only 150' away, the round trip from teepad to mando and back again took me 1 minute ish. The following card wasn't in sight, we weren't being a slow card.

 

[JC17393]

Some people's obsession with saving time is odd to me. I'm a fairly quick player and I prefer a fast pace to a round, but I see no reason to prioritize saving time over all else in a tournament. Disc golf isn't a race. The round's going to end when it's going to end. Especially in a shotgun start environment, you can only go as fast as the group in front of you. If you're keeping up with them, then the notion of "saving time" is entirely unnecessary.

The time-saving provisional rule is there as a convenience option, not a requirement.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd do it mostly to avoid the walk of shame back to the tee if that was the case, plus more likely to hit the mando right away on a second throw rather than waiting.

 

[cheesethin]

...plus more likely to hit the mando right away on a second throw rather than waiting.

Often I would agree, on this occasion I enjoyed the time to regroup.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

What are people's thoughts?

A provisional is a courteous and considerate thing that you have the option of doing. No one can make you be courteous or considerate if you don't want to.

 

[JC17393]

A provisional is a courteous and considerate thing that you have the option of doing. No one can make you be courteous or considerate if you don't want to.

Courteous and considerate to whom?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Courteous and considerate to whom?

You mean "by" whom. Courtesy is something that is given, not received. Like giving respect, it speaks to character of the giver. The person to whom courtesy is given is irrelevant for the purpose of determining whether someone is being courteous.

You've already staked out your position that anyone should feel free to waste everyone else's time and not be concerned with how it might affect anyone else on the course. If that's the hill you want to die on, so be it. I wonder what you think is the reason for the rule if not for the saving of time and why that might matter to anyone else.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's not a courtesy if there's not a recipient. Can you be courteous, alone?

 

[DavidSauls]

In the specific case cited at the start of this thread, the mando is about 150' feet from the tee.

How long does it take to walk 150 feet? How much time would a provisional potentially save?

Every provisional taken, takes a little bit of time in itself. Time to consider and discuss it, time for the extra throw, time to retrieve the disc if it lands far from the original, and sometimes time to find it. If it turns out to be an unneeded provisional, all that time is lost. If it turns out to be a needed provisional, you've saved the time it takes to walk back to the tee; possibly double that, for the round trip, if the subsequent throw is also furthest from the basket in the group.

 

[JC17393]

You mean "by" whom. Courtesy is something that is given, not received. Like giving respect, it speaks to character of the giver. The person to whom courtesy is given is irrelevant for the purpose of determining whether someone is being courteous.

You've already staked out your position that anyone should feel free to waste everyone else's time and not be concerned with how it might affect anyone else on the course. If that's the hill you want to die on, so be it. I wonder what you think is the reason for the rule if not for the saving of time and why that might matter to anyone else.

David covered how courtesy works, so I'll leave that alone.

I have NOT staked a claim that anyone should feel free to waste time. My point is and remains that a provisional throw in the OP's situation IS NOT REQUIRED, so the notion of saving time is not paramount to all other considerations. Especially since, as David points out, the entire act of taking the provisional...the discussion of whether to take the provisional, then to play the provisional, then to walk up and discover if the provisional was needed at all...takes time. Enough time that it's questionable whether it's saving much or any time at all in the long run.

 

[PoorPutter]

I always open the door for myself....out of courtesy.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

It's not a courtesy if there's not a recipient. Can you be courteous, alone?

Yes. It only takes one person to be courteous. It does not take two.

 

[DavidSauls]

That's why I dish out all my courtesy when I'm at home, alone. Then when I deal with other people I can be rude, having already reached my courtesy quota.

 

[cheesethin]

Yes. It only takes one person to be courteous. It does not take two.

Can you give me an example of a courteous act which doesn't have some kind of recipient? Either a direct or indirect recipient, a specific or a general recipient.

Courtesy is a type of human behaviour... towards others.



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