Turning discs over FH but not BH.

[Hogie]

Hey everyone, I've made an account here because something has been plaguing me...

I've been playing for a few years casually. I've been throwing pretty fast discs such as the Boss and the Shryke as my main distance drivers. I'm able to get the Shryke out to about 400-450.

I can usually get the Boss to around 375-400 on both RHFH and RHBH. However, recently my FH throws have all been turning over and fading out before getting any distance.

TLDR: My Boss turns over heavily on FH but is still very stable on BH. I dont feel like I've changed my form at all. Any suggestions? Is it possible for a worn in disc to lose stability in only one direction?

 

[Armus Patheticus]

It's common to see more turn FH due to more wobble and different spin: speed ratios. As a disc gets less stable it makes sense that the difference will become more pronounced.

 

[seedlings]

Less spin = more turn
Wobble = more turn
(More spin) + (less wobble) = more stability

Given same speed, flight, etc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Less spin = more turn
Wobble = more turn
(More spin) + (less wobble) = more stability

Given same speed, flight, etc.

FH naturally has about 25% less spin than BH.
Less spin = more precession or more turn and more fade.
More spin = less precession or straighter flight.
More speed = increases magnitude of precession.
Nose down = turn.
Nose up = fade.
Wobble = center of pressure moving back and forth or not steady precession. This can vary the flight, sometimes for a straighter flight in a way like Steve Rico putts.

The variable most likely changed is the disc wear and tear or surface roughness and possibly warpage and the mass distribution.

Surface roughness decreases drag so the disc maintains speed longer and will precess more.
Warpage and uneven mass distribution increase wobble like an unbalanced tire and will typically fly like a wounded duck and drop fast.

So your FH most likely has a number of factors making it more sensitive to the disc wear changes. Lower spin ratio, higher wobble, more nose down. There's not much you can do about this assuming your form is good. Form can help though. Or time for a new disc.

 

[Hogie]

FH naturally has about 25% less spin than BH.
Less spin = more precession or more turn and more fade.
More spin = less precession or straighter flight.
More speed = increases magnitude of precession.
Nose down = turn.
Nose up = fade.
Wobble = center of pressure moving back and forth or not steady precession. This can vary the flight, sometimes for a straighter flight in a way like Steve Rico putts.

The variable most likely changed is the disc wear and tear or surface roughness and possibly warpage and the mass distribution.

Surface roughness decreases drag so the disc maintains speed longer and will precess more.
Warpage and uneven mass distribution increase wobble like an unbalanced tire and will typically fly like a wounded duck and drop fast.

So your FH most likely has a number of factors making it more sensitive to the disc wear changes. Lower spin ratio, higher wobble, more nose down. There's not much you can do about this assuming your form is good. Form can help though. Or time for a new disc.

Thanks for the in depth reply! I've got very little wobble on my FHs, so I think it may be a combination of a few things like you said.

I actually decided to disc down. I went out and bought a Star Destroyer to replace the Boss, and a Star Wraith to replace the Shryke. I feel this should likely help me iron out any form issues. If I continue to turn over the brand new Destroyer on my FHs, then I definitely know I have work to do on my form.

 

[banknwank]

I'm a novice at forehand and maybe shouldn't comment . But I find it's the wrist roll at the very end of the throw that causes me turn over discs that I'm not really turning over at greater distances on bh. The harder I try to throw, the more I make that mistake. I really halve to focus on keeping palm up on release to mitigate . I love my wraith on bh , but crank it over on fh at a fraction of the power or distance. I am working on fh with more under stable stuff to try and figure it out also. Im also not looking for 400 +ft, just that fade to the right vs trying to turn over a back hand in some situations.

 

[Skervoy]

Yes I would agree that wrist roll would be the main culprit. It can be ever so slight but give so much effect. I had some problem with this for a while but after a while I realised I had started to "pre roll" my wrist with my grip so my finger pads were mostly against the rim and not the flight plate. So I went back to keeping my pads mostly up against the plate and the issue went away pretty quick

 

[sidewinder22]

But I find it's the wrist roll at the very end of the throw that causes me turn over discs that I'm not really turning over at greater distances on bh. I really halve to focus on keeping palm up on release to mitigate.

Yes I would agree that wrist roll would be the main culprit. It can be ever so slight but give so much effect. I had some problem with this for a while but after a while I realised I had started to "pre roll" my wrist with my grip so my finger pads were mostly against the rim and not the flight plate. So I went back to keeping my pads mostly up against the plate and the issue went away pretty quick

I disagree the wobble has to due with rolling the wrist over. It has to due with a disconnection between your body and arm/disc and possibly grip.

If you grip with the finger pads on the rim then you definitely should not finish palm up to the sky. If you grip with finger pads on the rim you can push in the direction of the throw and clench your finger/s adding velocity and spin.

If you grip with the finger pad pinching on the flight plate, then clenching the fingers and wrist flexion will put wobble on the disc and would have to finish palm up and rely on only ulnar deviation.

Palm goes almost 180 degrees in 3 frames.

 

[hawgdriver]

That's a rad breakdown. When I really crush a FH, it has nothing to do with trying to crush a FH. It really feels last last instant wrist action, for which I have to stay ridiculously loose--easier said than done sometimes.

But I *love* seeing images like this, it really helps with the pre-throw mental framework.

OP, I have this problem too sometimes. Other ideas:

*imagine the throw is like skimming the disc barely over a flat table of eggs (weird but it worked for me)
*pay attention to your follow through, you hand in particular--I like Wysocki, Marwede, Hammes, Jones, and Eagle in particular. They are different, and what you find that works for you, well, think about that as the end state.
*break it down even more fundamental and revisit footwork and hip/elbow connectedness
*throw it with a slightly modified grip (or, stated differently, hold it with more anny--or, aim for a more anny release angle)
*don't throw so hard, just...let it happen. Do a bunch of 70% throws that are laced. Make it freaking grade-school easy and only when it's ridiculously easy, work in the snap