USDGC 2023 - 25th edition

[Jolt]

I think misplay hinges on playing from the wrong spot.

Whereas last spot inbounds after OB is decided by the group, at which point it becomes the right spot, regardless of reality.

I do think it helps when two of your cardmates is Discraft players and the 4th is a 16y rookie. . .not ONE of the players on her card wants her to re-tee

 

[Flick Maniac]

I hear you. Not much that can be done, with the current rule setup.

In other news.... really happy about Kyle winning it. He earned it. It would have been devastating to fumble into a playoff and lose. Again.

However, kinda think they (Kyle+caddie+whoever) could have made up a safer playbook on #18. Playing it safe for par is not necessarily easy especially in that situation, and he made two bad errors that brought it a little too close for comfort. How about mashing it intentionally right OB as far as you can, with a full power sidearm shot with an overstable distance driver? You know you can afford take the OB stroke and be guaranteed a spot well up the fairway, on the right side. Two safe jump putts / semithrows and tap in the bogey?

But yeah, overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 days. Maybe could have had more of my favorites on the top cards, but hey thats their problem not being there

 

[Jolt]

I hear you. Not much that can be done, with the current rule setup.

In other news.... really happy about Kyle winning it. He earned it. It would have been devastating to fumble into a playoff and lose. Again.

However, kinda think they (Kyle+caddie+whoever) could have made up a safer playbook on #18. Playing it safe for par is not necessarily easy especially in that situation, and he made two bad errors that brought it a little too close for comfort. How about mashing it intentionally right OB as far as you can, with a full power sidearm shot with an overstable distance driver? You know you can afford take the OB stroke and be guaranteed a spot well up the fairway, on the right side. Two safe jump putts / semithrows and tap in the bogey?

But yeah, overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 days. Maybe could have had more of my favorites on the top cards, but hey thats their problem not being there

Hard to find that "intentionally throw OB" mindset. . if your not Simon. . .but i DO feel players should have a "safe plan" for the last hole. . both kyle and Holyn played hole 18 horrible ( dont think i have never seen both MPO and FPO play hole 18 with 2xOB on the last hole and almost loose the tournament.

 

[BraveThrower43]

It may be about time for Major tournaments (and A tiers that pretend like they are Majors but really aren't) to have Marshalls following the top cards to help with card rulings.... regardless, the last few holes on this course are so good for end of round drama.

Congrats to Holyn. Even if she didn't win today, it felt like it was only a matter of time until she grabbed her first.

The PDGA did have Marshalls on the top 2 cards to assist with any issues or calls that needed to be made as well as 3 or so others walking the course. However they are not there to overrule a card unless the action is egregious and/or obvious but instead there to help interpret the rules.

This is a tough situation because in real time, 300' away, and from the naked eye it is tough to tell whether or not a disc landed in or not. Also could you imagine the outrage if a Marshall came in and overruled a group call and was incorrect? The PDGA would never hear the end of it. In the end bad judgement calls happen in all sports no matter how many replays or tools officials seem to have so it will never be perfect. VAR in soccer is a great example of this.

 

[Nale72]

No....I was absolutely guessing. I would be very surprised if that many were watching a FPO A Tier, on a pretty awful course. Maybe somebody has those numbers? Though, not very DGN/DGPT like, to endorse transparency. The view count on free youtube FPO coverage from Thurs. is 32K.

The FPO A-tier actually had a higher concurrent live audience on DGN the final day than the MPO Major. FPO had a Sunday peak of 9200 concurrent viewers while MPO only had 8200 concurrent live viewers. This directly from the broadcast producer Mahmoud Bahrani.

And to be fair, the FPO competition was much more fun and exciting to watch this weekend than the MPO.

 

[Nale72]

I don't believe so, no. They played it the way the rules dictated. Spotter could not see definitively, and it was too close to call from the tee. Player gets benefit of the doubt. There should have been more discussion I believe, unless that discussion occurred off camera before they arrived at the location. In order for video to be fairly utilized, it would have to be used for every player every shot.

This is how disc golf has always been. It is self officiated by the group.

Perhaps one of the rules gurus can chime in...?

I agree with you the call was according to the rules, but I also believe that it had been prudent with a situation so crucial to the tournament outcome to play a provisional and at least ask the spotter since the other players on the card didn't have a good line of sight of that OB line. According to Holyn in the after round interview her team mate Missy said she thought the disc landed in bounce and the others on the card didn't disagree. That was the complete "discussion". They never even brought up the suggestion of playing a provisional and ask the spotter.

But none of the others on Holyn's card were in contention so I guess they just went with what Missy and Holyn said and didn't want to be make it awkward and let it go. I do feel pretty certain that if Holyn instead had been on the lead card with the players in contention; KT, Eveliina and Henna things had not played out the same, but that they then had asked Holyn to play a provisional and at least ask the spotter.

I also believe that both Holyn and the rest of the card in retrospect wish they had done that.

Sure, maybe the spotter also was unsure, but if they had played a provisional and at least asked him they at least had done their best to get it correct. Even if it had turned out to be factually incorrect in the end.

But from the attached picture from the live stream from the actual point Holyn's disc touched ground it at least seem as the spotter had a pretty good look of the situation and was the one on the best angle of them all since he was pretty much right on the OB line coming up from the water line.

And the very fact that the spotter never went down there to put a flag where the disc went over the in-bounds and then went back OB should be a pretty good indication for the card and everyone else for what the spotter thought.

 

[Nale72]

The PDGA did have Marshalls on the top 2 cards to assist with any issues or calls that needed to be made as well as 3 or so others walking the course. However they are not there to overrule a card unless the action is egregious and/or obvious but instead there to help interpret the rules.

This is a tough situation because in real time, 300' away, and from the naked eye it is tough to tell whether or not a disc landed in or not. Also could you imagine the outrage if a Marshall came in and overruled a group call and was incorrect? The PDGA would never hear the end of it. In the end bad judgement calls happen in all sports no matter how many replays or tools officials seem to have so it will never be perfect. VAR in soccer is a great example of this.

I'm not sure if it's worse if a marshal steps in and makes an incorrect ruling or don't step in to overrule an incorrect group call. In both cases we get the wrong result. But I believe that a marshal would have to be very sure of their case before they step in to overrule it.

I just for everone's sake would have loved to see Holyn lace that original tee shot and won it straight up or made the correct call and re-teed, made a bogey and then won the play-off.

If any of those hade been the case the biggest talk after the event had been how great both Holyn and Kyle played the last round and that they both were very deserving winners. It's just sad for everyone the way everything turned out now.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The FPO A-tier actually had a higher concurrent live audience on DGN the final day than the MPO Major. FPO had a Sunday peak of 9200 concurrent viewers while MPO only had 8200 concurrent live viewers. This directly from the broadcast producer Mahmoud Bahrani.

And to be fair, the FPO competition was much more fun and exciting to watch this weekend than the MPO.

Tough for MPO going against NFL and potential viewers going to a course to play on Sunday afternoon.

 

[bhadella]

Tough for MPO going against NFL and potential viewers going to a course to play on Sunday afternoon.

The crowd following the lead card was probably 1/5 of what it normally during a final round in person at USDGC. The lack of Paul, Ricky, Simon near the lead plus Kyles healthy lead were certainly the biggest impacts.

 

[biscoe]

IMO spotters on holes where the players cannot see sh*t should be deputized as tournament officials and make these calls.

 

[biscoe]

And the very fact that the spotter never went down there to put a flag where the disc went over the in-bounds and then went back OB should be a pretty good indication for the card and everyone else for what the spotter thought.

Yep. This.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The crowd following the lead card was probably 1/5 of what it normally during a final round in person at USDGC. The lack of Paul, Ricky, Simon near the lead plus Kyles healthy lead were certainly the biggest impacts.

Many people also watching on the big screens in the tent and vendor village.

 

[Nale72]

IMO spotters on holes where the players cannot see sh*t should be deputized as tournament officials and make these calls.

At the very least they should play a provisional and at ask the spotter if he had a good look. Which also was the first thing JK said on commentary right after the shot and which should be the first thing a professional player should think in that situation. If the spotter didn't have a good look, or they decide they don't believe him, fine, go with what they did now. But at least make it look as you tried to do the right thing and ask him.

Now they had no intention at all bothering with that. Probably since everyone on chase card had no problem with Holyn playing from up the fairway since they didn't have anything to lose from it and they didn't want to create bad atmosphere on the card.

 

[biscoe]

At the very least they should play a provisional and at ask the spotter if he had a good look. Which also was the first thing JK said on commentary right after the shot and which should be the first thing a professional player should think in that situation. If the spotter didn't have a good look, or they decide they don't believe him, fine, go with what they did now. But at least make it look as you tried to do the right thing and ask him.

Now they had no intention at all bothering with that. Probably since everyone on chase card had no problem with Holyn playing from up the fairway since they didn't have anything to lose from it and they didn't want to create bad atmosphere on the card.

I agree with Juliana completely.

The players in general have proven time and again that they don't want to/won't make any difficult/potentially stressful calls regardless of what the rules say about the sport being self-officiated. I honestly have no idea what we can do about it at this point in growth of the game. Kids playing pickup basketball can handle making calls/having calls made on them but not "professional" disc golfers.

 

[TheOtherBill]

I feel the need to point out when playing pick up, you know you slapped that guys hand trying to steal the ball because you did it and know you did. This isn't that situation at all - no one knew for sure.

 

[@CD-]

I feel the need to point out when playing pick up, you know you slapped that guys hand trying to steal the ball because you did it and know you did. This isn't that situation at all - no one knew for sure.

Slowed down replay on YT Handley OB

Frame by frame analysis can show that the disc landed and remained OB after hitting the ground. Even on that slowed replay zoomed in from the tee shot angle I couldn't definitively say the disc didn't cross the corner of that OB line (around a disc's width short of where it spiked down) when it was going through the bush. No surprise that the chase card golfers weren't willing to make a judgement on that close of a call, especially in the sunny conditions where the narrow OB line may not have been easy to see.

I wonder if the card had any immediate discussion on the tee to confirm if she crossed in bounds and negate any need for a provisional. Spotter not flagging it isn't too surprising since it is a card's decision to determine the location of the lie and the spotter couldn't really see much of the disc going through a bush. If the majority of the card was unwilling to definitively say she only crossed OB and needed to retee then Handley gets to progress up the fairway.

 

[BillFleming]

IMO spotters on holes where the players cannot see sh*t should be deputized as tournament officials and make these calls.

No, please no. I've been a volunteer at tournaments and I've been a course director (designated official). I've seen too many volunteers "think" they know the rules and they have no clue. Unless the volunteer is a Certified Rules Official with the PDGA they should NEVER be a tournament official. And the majority of volunteers I know aren't even PDGA members. At one tournament a volunteer was spotting a mando. The volunteer said the player missed the mando when they hadn't. The entire card said the player was safe and the volunteer said they would be reporting the player and the entire card to the PDGA for cheating. The card reported it to the TD and volunteer was banned from ever volunteering again. (and yes, the volunteer had been told exactly what the mando rule was and how to apply it....they were also told they - the volunteer - was not a rules official and to not argue any rules decision....the volunteer was just to give advice and the card's decision was final - but the volunteer ignored that and thought THEY were the final say).

 

[Naenae]

Now they had no intention at all bothering with that. Probably since everyone on chase card had no problem with Holyn playing from up the fairway since they didn't have anything to lose from it and they didn't want to create bad atmosphere on the card.

Reminiscent of Mike Dean not overruling a call on VAR because he thought the field officials were already having a rough day?

 

[biscoe]

No, please no. I've been a volunteer at tournaments and I've been a course director (designated official). I've seen too many volunteers "think" they know the rules and they have no clue. Unless the volunteer is a Certified Rules Official with the PDGA they should NEVER be a tournament official. And the majority of volunteers I know aren't even PDGA members. At one tournament a volunteer was spotting a mando. The volunteer said the player missed the mando when they hadn't. The entire card said the player was safe and the volunteer said they would be reporting the player and the entire card to the PDGA for cheating. The card reported it to the TD and volunteer was banned from ever volunteering again. (and yes, the volunteer had been told exactly what the mando rule was and how to apply it....they were also told they - the volunteer - was not a rules official and to not argue any rules decision....the volunteer was just to give advice and the card's decision was final - but the volunteer ignored that and thought THEY were the final say).

Calm down. No one suggested that unqualified individuals be allowed to officiate anything nor that all spotters needed to be deputized.

 

[Nale72]

I agree with Juliana completely.

The players in general have proven time and again that they don't want to/won't make any difficult/potentially stressful calls regardless of what the rules say about the sport being self-officiated. I honestly have no idea what we can do about it at this point in growth of the game. Kids playing pickup basketball can handle making calls/having calls made on them but not "professional" disc golfers.

Golf is more or less self officiated even on the highest level (unless the very few times a group has a rules official assigned to follow them for that reason) with the exception that a rules infraction that the player is deemed that he/she should have noticed/been aware of (and would have been possible to notice with the naked eye) may result in a penalty being applied after the round (until the tournament is finished) if the committee become aware about it, even if it is threw video footage. And this with an extra penalty if it has to been added after the round if the player did not flag the possible infraction.

Because of this and that golf players are taught from the very beginning to strictly follow the rules, most golf players is normally extremely cautions if there is a possibility for a rule infraction. First they let their group know, and if the group is slightly unsecure, they (depending of the level of the tournament) either play a second ball and take it with the TD before they return the score card or in higer level tournaments, they call for a rules official that normally drives over to the group and make a ruling at the spot. As a rules official you very seldom make a ruling over the phone since small missed pieces of information from the player(s) can make a big difference about the ruling.

My experience from disc golf (have been playing watching for 3 years now) is that disc golfers have much more "relaxed" attitude about rules and very seldom make uncomfortable calls and seldom any calls at all, even if the infractions are crystal clear. This means that compared to golf it's much more dependent on which players you have on your card if you get called for an infraction than if you actually break a rule.

I believe that if you changed the rules for the DGPT/Majors to make it possible to apply penalties on a later hole or even after the round (if between rounds) based on video evidence, the players would suddenly have to play according to ALL rules. Maybe some rules have to be changed a bit for this to be realistic. For example, if they would video check all step and jump putts on video for a round and hand out penalties for people putting down the front foot on step puts or having both feet off the ground during jump putts before they release the disc, we would have a huge amount of retroactive penalties.