USDGC Hole 7 - Rule 804.02.F

[Cgkdisc]

yep.

 

[bradharris]

This actually came up in one of my USDGC rounds last year. A player in my group was up against the bamboo and was trying to straddle towards the edge to try to get a better approach line. We stopped him before he threw and pointed out the rule so he could adjust to a legal stance.

 

[joshmo65]

"The nearest mandatory which has not yet been passed is considered to be the target for all rules related to marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief, if the line of play does not pass to the correct side of that mandatory."

I would interpret that to say that if your between the mandos then you have a clear line to the basket and it therefore remains as the target.

:hfive:

 

[BgWvDave]

I can absolutely vouch for all the players on the lead card understanding the mandatory rule as it apples to the marking of the lie and stance in relation to the Mandatory on Hole 7. As a matter of fact you can see Ricky ask everyone in his group at 1:43:06 if they are ok with his stance. it looked to me like it was a legal mark and a legal stance and I had a pretty good vantage point.

At 1:42:35 you will see a guy in a blue jacket in the left portion of your screen move from the left side of the fairway to join the lead group. That was me. I marshaled holes 7,8,15 and 16 this year. every group I saw play hole 7 was aware of the mando's role in the marking of your lie for those that had not yet cleared the Mando or missed the Mando all together. I was there ALOT those 4 days and saw lots of discussion between groups in the Open and Performance division concerning where the correct mark and stance would be. All that I saw understood the mark and stance was in realation to the mando and not the basket.

 

[Coyote15]

I have a technical question for the rules people out there. Using the same situation we have discussed (disc lands short of mando with no direct line to basket – as indicated by ToddL diagrams), and, if the disc is within 10 meters of the mando (i.e. target), would the next throw be considered a "putt" (Rule 802.04.D) no matter how far from the actual basket you may be? So, no jump putting and/or no follow through, even if your 100 feet or meters from the actual basket, unless the lie is really close to the mando? Cheers

ps - I still like perpendicular for mandos, but the current rules say otherwise.

 

[coupe]

I have a technical question for the rules people out there. Using the same situation we have discussed (disc lands short of mando with no direct line to basket – as indicated by ToddL diagrams), and, if the disc is within 10 meters of the mando (i.e. target), would the next throw be considered a "putt" (Rule 802.04.D) no matter how far from the actual basket you may be?

No. The mando only governs marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief:

804.04 Mandatories
F. The nearest mandatory which has not yet been passed is considered to be the target for all rules related to marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief, if the line of play does not pass to the correct side of that mandatory.

 

[araytx]

No. The mando only governs marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief:

It's a "triple mando". So is the actual "mando" the line between the bamboo poles or each one individually?

 

[JC17393]

It's a "triple mando". So is the actual "mando" the line between the bamboo poles or each one individually?

The mandatory is the object which must be passed, not the line itself, so in the case of a double (or triple) mando, whichever pole is closer is the one you should be using for the purposes of "lie, stance, obstacles, and relief".

So if you're in a position such that the line of play from the basket passes the left (incorrect) side of the mando, you use the pole on the left side. If you're off to the right, you use the pole on the right side. The top mando is pretty much irrelevant with regard to stance and marking. The line of play is never going to pass to the "incorrect" side of it, only (potentially) the flight of the disc can do that.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Makes me think it would be fun to try different shapes to the mando opening like upside down triangle or circle where sometimes you can see the basket at eye level but at ground level the LOP passes around the bottom of the mando frame.

 

[Steve West]

Makes me think it would be fun to try different shapes to the mando opening like upside down triangle or circle where sometimes you can see the basket at eye level but at ground level the LOP passes around the bottom of the mando frame.

This is already the case for trees. If the mando is "right of the tree",the disc could pass barely right of the trunk, or farther right an inch off the ground by the roots, or farther right out past the drip line. Which one determines whether the line of play passes on the correct side?

Also, since the mando is an object, and the mando is the "target", and the line of play goes from the disc to the center of the target, the new line of play should go from the disc to the center of the tree.

Should the rule be that the line of play is always toward the real target? Does it make enough difference in whether you put your foot on this side of the disc or that side to have an extra complication to the rule?

 

[JC17393]

Should the rule be that the line of play is always toward the real target? Does it make enough difference in whether you put your foot on this side of the disc or that side to have an extra complication to the rule?

I think the rule is in place less for the placement of supporting points behind the marker, and more to prevent stepping toward the mando in order to improve one's angle in trying to get around it. The bamboo wall does provide a good example of that. If you were to land close to the wall and three feet from the corner of the opening, and you were allowed to use the basket to determine line of play, most players (say, anyone over ~5' tall) should be able to straddle/step out the 3.5-4 feet toward the opening to make a fairly easy throw through the gate and toward the target. However, if you have to use the corner of the opening as the "target", it forces more of a turn to the shot to both navigate through the gate and fly toward the target.

I suppose the further you are from the mando, the less it would make a difference where you draw the LOP from, but for those up close lies, I think the rule as is makes more sense. Which is probably why it is written that way.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you think of a mando as a substitute for wall of trees, it makes more sense to use the real line of play toward the pin rather than the mando so it emulates the appropriate stance for the wall of trees. Of course, many players in the first section of a wooded dogleg don't realize they should be stepping more to the side of their marker on the actual line of play, not the line of the fairway they see.

 

[Steve West]

I think the rule is in place less for the placement of supporting points behind the marker, and more to prevent stepping toward the mando in order to improve one's angle in trying to get around it. The bamboo wall does provide a good example of that. If you were to land close to the wall and three feet from the corner of the opening, and you were allowed to use the basket to determine line of play, most players (say, anyone over ~5' tall) should be able to straddle/step out the 3.5-4 feet toward the opening to make a fairly easy throw through the gate and toward the target. However, if you have to use the corner of the opening as the "target", it forces more of a turn to the shot to both navigate through the gate and fly toward the target.

I suppose the further you are from the mando, the less it would make a difference where you draw the LOP from, but for those up close lies, I think the rule as is makes more sense. Which is probably why it is written that way.

Yes, it makes sense, but would it be a bad thing to let players step toward the opening to make an easier throw? Or, actually the question is: so much badder as to create a whole new rule?

 

[Steve West]

If you think of a mando as a substitute for wall of trees, it makes more sense to use the real line of play toward the pin rather than the mando so it emulates the appropriate stance for the wall of trees. Of course, many players in the first section of a wooded dogleg don't realize they should be stepping more to the side of their marker on the actual line of play, not the line of the fairway they see.

If it wasn't for the "mind-reading" aspect of enforcement, a line of play along the direction the player intends to throw is the most intuitive.

 

[BrotherDave]

Sometimes when my disc is completely under the basket cylinder, I'll specifically put my non-plant foot to the side of the basket where it looks like it's "in front" of my lie, but it's actually farther from the basket than my mark under it - just to mess with players.

What if you did a sumo step while you did this? Would that be a falling putt? Non-plant foot in the air > putt > non-plant foot touches down "in front" of lie while plant foot comes up, all in one motion. opcorn:

 

[Cgkdisc]

What if you did a sumo step while you did this? Would that be a falling putt? Non-plant foot in the air > putt > non-plant foot touches down "in front" of lie while plant foot comes up, all in one motion. opcorn:

Why not? Entertainment value. Trick is to not touch the basket before demonstrating balance with these tricky moves.