Trying to learn snap and make it easier for others

[JR]

I'd say that there are different forms and not all of them are as pure as others. I'm not sure that Quasimodo is so much better than the rest of us with his form.

Certainly there are many different forms that'll allow long throws to happen when all parts of technique happen. Judging from what's been said about plateaus of D there certainly are technique differences in reaching the different D. With high levels of snap. My understanding from peoples comments is that anybody with good form and high levels of snap can throw 120m. It's not only wind, speed and strenght that allows the next 70 m of D that some few get. Look at Markus Källström. He has unusually compact form in the distance that his different parts move in the x step. He seems to change the lenght of the last step of the x step though. I haven't seen enough videos to tell how the D changes with his variations in throwing.

As for me I'd take any form now that'l get me to 120 m And I might already have that in me head. Hopefully I can get to test in practice as well soon. Until then.

I'm not condemning any form that allows people of average athleticism to reach 120 m. I will not say that they are all the same though. I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The devil is in the details

No, it's not! You can take a great throw, deconstruct it, and point to all the little things that made it great, but you really really cannot take all the little details and build them into a good throw. All you can do is throw, tweak, throw, tweak, throw, tweak.... until it gets there.

To me an analogy of what you said would be that you can drive a car forwards but you can't backtrack along your tire tracks by reversing. Happy to agree to disagree here too. All the roads lead to Rome. There are many ways. There's a Finnish proverb that goes like this: "There are many ways". Said granny wiping the table with a cat.

 

[garublador1]

Thank you! I'm glad it helps.

I think rising acceleration would be easiest to do consistently. Because this could be achieved with full acceleration started as late as possible. So the timing would be the only variable as the powering up would be constant.

I totally agree. Thinking of accelerating through the hit will most likely give the best results. Part of my point was that accelerating way too early (i.e. at the beginning of the pull) will make it difficult, if not impossible for a person to maximize acceleration at the hit.

I'm guessing the idea that throwing bent arm will help you learn snap is partially based on this idea. If you compact the motion it's easier to avoid this early acceleration, plus it helps you get into position to maximize snap. Once you get good at it, reaching farther back will give you more room to build up to the snap and can make it easier to maximize acceleration at the right time, i.e. the graph will be just as steep near the hit, but it will peak higher.

I saw part of a documentary regarding martial arts one time. They acutally showed the graphs I'm talking about with a regular person hitting a bag and a martial artists hitting the bag, both with approximately equivalent strength. The graphs were exactly what I described and the force the martial artist hit the bag with was much higher. I've also heard martial artists talking about board and cement breaking. All of them have said it's all about striking through the object, not at the object. This reinforces the idea that for a human, the "hit" for any of these movements will be right before maximum acceleration, just like you stated.

On a side note, does anyone think the information I posted is unique enough to be worth revising into an article? It's more or less all information from other sources, most of which I'm not sure I'll be able to correctly site, but I haven't seen it all put in one place and as the sole focus of discussion regarding disc golf. It could be out there, though, I just haven't read it myself. The ideas help me a lot, so I'm hoping they'll help others which is the only reason I'm asking.

 

[cmlasley]

On a side note, does anyone think the information I posted is unique enough to be worth revising into an article?

I think you should. Try to chase down all the references that you can, but this is good information, or the same information stated in a different way.

 

[JR]

Thank you! I'm glad it helps.

I think rising acceleration would be easiest to do consistently. Because this could be achieved with full acceleration started as late as possible. So the timing would be the only variable as the powering up would be constant.

Garublador: I totally agree. Thinking of accelerating through the hit will most likely give the best results. Part of my point was that accelerating way too early (i.e. at the beginning of the pull) will make it difficult, if not impossible for a person to maximize acceleration at the hit.

Janne: Been there suffered from that Wanna train for getting rid of this so bad.

Garublador: I'm guessing the idea that throwing bent arm will help you learn snap is partially based on this idea. If you compact the motion it's easier to avoid this early acceleration, plus it helps you get into position to maximize snap. Once you get good at it, reaching farther back will give you more room to build up to the snap and can make it easier to maximize acceleration at the right time, i.e. the graph will be just as steep near the hit, but it will peak higher.

Janne: To me it seems to be all about realizing that accelerating from 100 % arm speed ain't gonna be that quick with only a few relatively weak muscle groups working to extend the elbow and wrist. Weak compared to legs and hips. Probably shoulders too. And mellowing out the beginning since there's very little you cant put on top of 100 % speed Even though I haven' t received comments of the validity of my theorem about smoothness of throwing meaning gradual slowish acceleration of the disc as opposed to full tilt yank as late as possible (Barry Schulz says herky jerky) I think this is true and what people mean by smoothmess in the throw. Look at Nate Doss on Discraft clinic as he says trying to be smooth. The hand movement chnages not much at all to any direction but the throw plus the acceleration is constant not jerky at all. Even though it ain't a real throw but an illustration.

I suggested as late an acceleration as possible for training purposes only to chase timing. Once you know the right area where to get a high acceleration try to see if you can get more D by ever so slightly starting to accelerate tiny bit earlier with a fraction less of acceleration. Compared to the latest point of acceleration that is. Iterate until the best results are obtained and think of what happened and see if you can think of something to do better.

My quess is that with less than 100 % acceleration there's less twisting of the disc into off axis torque coming from abruptness in the acceleration. If you've seen jello moved quickly, high speed camera footage slowed down of dragsters or I suppose rifles or jsut watched a garden hose move freely after letting water in it at pressure you know what I mean. Inrush current in electronics does the same. Modern subwoofers have brought microphonics back to at least tube amplifiers. All of this comes from too much force with too soft parts accelerated too violently and shaking al over the place without accuracy and consistency.

Take all of this as speculation as this is only that and partly parroting what others have said. Because I have to do these exercises for myself too.

Garublador: I've also heard martial artists talking about board and cement breaking. All of them have said it's all about striking through the object, not at the object. This reinforces the idea that for a human, the "hit" for any of these movements will be right before maximum acceleration, just like you stated.

Janne: Would seem plausible and I think that is what Blake means with the advice of having the highest speed on the throw 2" after the disc has ripped from the hand.

Garublador: On a side note, does anyone think the information I posted is unique enough to be worth revising into an article? It's more or less all information from other sources, most of which I'm not sure I'll be able to correctly site, but I haven't seen it all put in one place and as the sole focus of discussion regarding disc golf. It could be out there, though, I just haven't read it myself. The ideas help me a lot, so I'm hoping they'll help others which is the only reason I'm asking.

We are steping along the same path at least partially. While I think that the articles are really helpful I've gotten so much more really crucial advice from this board that it would be faster and easier for people to read a single article explaining things not mentioned in the articles. Since these matters really are FAQ. One single article could be a great reference for people a little advanced from amateurs hoping to reach lower skilled pros. For novice to amateurs a crash course of a checklist depth might be easier to start with.

was thinking of writing a growth story of myself if I succeed in getting snap. After the short version of abc cookbook version. Expanding on different exercises to find out different things about mechanics and timing if possible. Just a introduction to throwing correctly made easy to make developing as a player from novice to competent driver. Putting I'll leave for somebody else. i thought analysis of training and results are helpful for making people see why something worked and why not. Sort of technique repair section of this site for traing methods and what to think of instead of throwing.

I'm in no position of authority and I won't start any time soon as I have loads of throwing to do to correct my previous technical faults that mask who knows what. So I applaud your effort and by all means do write an article. My way of approaching this has been a community effort from the get go to check what I have to train and how and what kind of results I should expect to see. I couldn't have learned all of this so soon at least and probably not at all on some counts without all of you. And especially Blake. Much appreciated.

I think that as many different perspectives and ways of explaining things are good for those that do not get what is being described in one way. Not getting it the first time is no proof of not being able to understand. There are very different people therefore it is impossible to predict what kind of approach will help an individuaI to understand. Therefore a wide range of descriptions might be helpful in order to get as may people as possible to learn.

I have plenty of experience of making people understand complex matters. Yes more complex than snap. Really. It might take a couple of tries and different perspectives from which to enlighten things but eventually I've had great success at teaching a lot of varied things to very different people. Learning complex things seems to be a matter of willingness to keep en open mind and putting in the effort and time to really think. And leaving back your ego and beliefs and "facts" gathered so far. Only review of pluses and minuses and probabilities of correctness and unison of theroy and results ought to be considered in accepting and rejecting new suggested ways of doing things. It ain't this easy always but I'm trying to keep this short. Application is often more demanding than first principles because there are more principles to follow and balance.

Most matters like snapping aren't probably beyond most peoples intelligence. It's a matter of presenting enough crucial data without messing peoples ability to handle info too badly with too much data at once. Easy does it. I'm the first one to admit that I don't let my readers easily off the hook of concentrating and thinking with maximum brevity. A conscious choice -don't ask why because you won't like the asnwer. So I won't answer even if asked politely. Sorry. Too much of a hassle would ensue. Tested and found majority of people to be too fragile and lead astray for quick and easy fixes to coping with reality. Just the ways things are with the lack of quality of education in every country. The teaching may be good in some places but the shoice of topics is skewed and does really not help people. Maybe those with mind numbing work though...

Quess the ability to make things understandable for others runs in the family. If I could get the communication part down better describing things in writing Iwould be even more understandable When I chose to be that is. So maybe someone less demanding is better writing articles for most people. And filling in the whys, dos and don'ts might be better in another article.

 

[JR]

I had some progress today. It was my first practice session ever with my left hand. My right hand is still way inoperational. I noticed after the practice session that a vein had broken in my left hand. I had it 9 days ago and practice renewed it. So there's a mandatory break for me again :-(

Luckily I did confirm many theories. I threw an APX 173 and a 172 glow Wizard. No consistency and accuracy when I tried harder. Not much worse at almost full power. Ridiculously low distances. I didn't x step hard. Just walking speed or even less at times.

I found out that with putters and power grip my small hands really are a terrible hindrance. If I don't consciously tense my muscles between my elbow and wrist my wrist rises from wrist down to handshaking position or a little higher. For these lowish power from the legs and hips beginnings to around 50 % shoulder turn, 70-90 % arm speed and 90-100 % elbow unbendung throws I needed to tense up my hand muscles to 40-60 % percent of maximum to keep the wrist down. I didn't bend my knees and len forward from the waist so I lost several degrees there for the majority of the throws. I did that intentionally to see how much control I have with the wrist alone and what it takes to keep the nose parallel to the ground with wrist alone. Too much with putters for me. Maybe another grip suits me better. Have to try different grips later.

I got rid of off axis torque by telegraphing my shots. I had noticeable snap. I took a little over half off of fade compared to non snapped throws usually. I had obviously gotten the idea somewhat or pretty well right in my head and on previous tries. I could take two thirds to four fifths of the fade away if I really yanked my elbow and wrist hard.

The motion that increased the spin of the disc visibly (intentional nose up to see the stamp spinning) included unbending the elbow as fast as I could. Simultaneously moving the elbow of my left hand from left to right in the beginning of unbending and simultaneously starting to unbend the wrist under muscle power before the momentum helped the wrist to unbend fully. I increased the revolutions of the disc about three fold this way to previous style of just unbending the elbow and the wrist following a straight line not concentrating on full elbow chop speed. I gained 80 % less fade at best. That was with a 15' high throw with the nose up by about 20 degrees. New Wizard dropped in the fade after the forward speed died by about less than two feet from 15 feet of altitude moving forward about 3-5 feet during the fade. Not too shabby for previously snap deficient thrower. With the first steps taken towards snapping with putters and mids just 4-5 practice sessions ago.

On one throw I got the nose angle parallel to the ground with probably close to the I quess optimal altitude of 8-10 feet for the speed and less than ful RPMs. Perhaps 60-80 % of full RPMs. With as much speed as the rest of the tries that had either gone lower, higher, nose up or combinations and the disc flew visibly faster to around one sixth farther than the average of good throws. Gone too high or low with reasonably flat or flat nose angle. I don't know how this translates to full power throws with putters or drivers but I know I have better grips for driving with more nose down and looser muscles so I'm hopeful of improvements in my driving. It's just that I think my wrist muscles aren't as powerful as my lower body muscles in trying to control the forces I can generate into the motion. In order to keep the disc in correct angles with full power drives I need to really wrestle and muscle down my wrist even with the easier nose down angles. Generated from getting the weight forward from upright to leaning forward that happens naturally by doing full speed x steps.

It seems that I have the basics of snapping and proper form down on low power Wizard throws of up to 120' with my left hand. I just don't have all the proper combinations of arm speed, snap, nose down angle, hyzer and heights down for throws varying in these aspects. Because this was my first time throwing the Wizard with proper technique and with left hand at that. And the second time ever with the Wizard. And first practice ever with my left hand. Considering the handicaps I think this was a good proof of concepts and the easiness of correcting my previous programs. So a real jump in technique if not in D for obvious reasons.

Even without the vein bleeding internally I found out that I'm way too unbalanced in muscle strenght and coordination right vs left. Knew that already. The difference isn't too bad all things considered. Just don't know how much work it requires to develop my left hand. As starts go it is promising that I could get the technique purer with my left hand than ever before with my right so thanks guys for the advice. It really works! I'm very excited. Happy happy joy joy!

 

[Blake_T1]

I found out that with putters and power grip my small hands really are a terrible hindrance

guessing this is a placement issue in the hand moreso than a hand size issue.

my hands measure 7 1/8" from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger (~17.5 cm for metric peeps).

my index finger measure 2 5/8" (~6.5cm).

in my lifetime i have met a grand total of 2 adult males with smaller hands than me.

if your hands are of equal size to mine or larger, there shouldn't be a problem with correct placement.

it is wider rimmed discs that should pose the real problem.

 

[JR]

I found out that with putters and power grip my small hands really are a terrible hindrance

guessing this is a placement issue in the hand moreso than a hand size issue.

my hands measure 7 1/8" from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger (~17.5 cm for metric peeps).

my index finger measure 2 5/8" (~6.5cm).

Janne: My hands are less than half an inch larger than yours. I'm not that worried about the power grip with putters because I don't use power grip. This time was for practice purposes only anticipating a change to mids and drivers with improved technique. I want to see how I do with the power grip and improved technique to see the results in differences of throwng technique to assess the size changes due to improved technique.

What kind of grip do you use with Wizards?

I've used three and two finger grip so far for drives with putters up to this latest practice. I am intriqued by birdie grip with wide rimmed drievers and have to check it out with putters. Have to check out the fork grip for Wizardry as well

I really have tremendous hassle with the power grip and wide rimmed drivers. I'm most likely gonna use some other kind of grip than the power grip. Birdie or low bonopane if there is no previous name for the grip I described in the thread Tri this for getting the nose down. Won't know what I'll use until I compare these grips in actual throws with my right hand after it heals. A long time in waiting I'm afraid :-(

I might also revert back to the the most succesful grip that I've had best success with. Two finger grip has been the best for me so far despite slipping and callouses to my middle finger. I have strong fingers so it is possible that with increased squeezing force(plenty of unused potential) I might be able to get rips instead of slips. So far the wrist motion has been largest with the two finger grips and the muscles loosest out of the grips I've thrown with. Really anxious to try the new grips as well. Almost as good as the low bonopane around normal bonopane. With less nose down angle potential though.

 

[Blake_T1]

half an inch is a glove size

also, the issue with wide drivers is strong rip more than nose down.

if you get your weight forward and get your chest over the disc you shouldn't have any nose angle trouble.

i use power grip on driving putters/mids/drivers, but i also throw with the fork grip and fan grip depending upon what i need (usually these on shorter shots)

 

[Toomes1]

my hands measure 7 1/8" from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger (~17.5 cm for metric peeps).

my index finger measure 2 5/8" (~6.5cm).

in my lifetime i have met a grand total of 2 adult males with smaller hands than me.

if your hands are of equal size to mine or larger, there shouldn't be a problem with correct placement.

it is wider rimmed discs that should pose the real problem.

I just measured my hands and mine are 7" from base of the palm to tip of the middle finger and my index finger measures 2 3/4" , so I'm right there with you. I use a fork grip, which for me, helps in gripping putters and wider rimmed discs. I still can't get a consistent grip on a wraith or inferno. SOLF's and Avengers are the widest rimmed discs in my bag.

 

[JR]

half an inch is a glove size

also, the issue with wide drivers is strong rip more than nose down.

if you get your weight forward and get your chest over the disc you shouldn't have any nose angle trouble.

i use power grip on driving putters/mids/drivers, but i also throw with the fork grip and fan grip depending upon what i need (usually these on shorter shots)

To be more exact my hands are around halfway between half and quarter of an inch longer than yours. I definitely have less weight forward than Climo. It was already on the list of things to change. And I have already achieved great results by moving my weight forward gradually in small steps. One or two steps more should do it.

I have usually used three finger grip for putters as a balance between driving and putting so that the grip is constant and I have less to worry about. It is time to try new grips and decide for what to use each or not using some grip(s) at all.

For wide rimmed drivers I have at least 40 % more squeezing stranght available than I have used before so I'm really interested to see the differences.

 

[JR]

I just measured my hands and mine are 7" from base of the palm to tip of the middle finger and my index finger measures 2 3/4" , so I'm right there with you. I use a fork grip, which for me, helps in gripping putters and wider rimmed discs. I still can't get a consistent grip on a wraith or inferno. SOLF's and Avengers are the widest rimmed discs in my bag.

Have you tried the grip that I described in the first post of the thread Try this for getting the nose down? That may help with wider rimmed drivers. It sure helps me. Out of max range drivers SOLF has given me best results because of the modest rim width and shalow profile. Even easier is the easiest disc that I've found so far Discraft Storm in x plastic 17? g. I have a z 150 and the top is much domier and the flattening starts much closer to the center of the disc. Surprisingly Flick is the second easiest disc to grip for me. Probably the super thin profile helps even though the rim is wide. For some reason Talon isn't as easy for me with higher profile and less rim width. XS in Z feels oddly heavy for me even though the rim width is less than with the Talon and the height doesn't differ that much. Sidewinder is a little difficult as is the Valkyrie but still not as bad as the newest generations of drivers. Buzzz is good for me of the mids and QMS is okay. There might be more easy to grip discs out there but I haven't thrown every disc under the sun.

 

[Blake_T1]

For wide rimmed drivers I have at least 40 % more squeezing stranght available than I have used before so I'm really interested to see the differences.

i have posted about this before...

if it feels stronger "at rest" it is not necessarily stronger "in motion."

narrow discs feel looser in the hand at rest, but are stronger in motion.

wide discs feel stronger at rest, but are weaker in motion.

it's the physics of the finger angles and the rim wall. if your fingers go beyond and then come back at the rim vs. just barely getting around the rim...

 

[presidio hills]

in my lifetime i have met a grand total of 2 adult males with smaller hands than me.

i just measured mine... i'm about 6 3/4" from base of palm to middle finger tip. sounds like my index finger is 1/8" longer than yours, though.

i can still throw a flick, though.

 

[JR]

For wide rimmed drivers I have at least 40 % more squeezing stranght available than I have used before so I'm really interested to see the differences.

i have posted about this before...

if it feels stronger "at rest" it is not necessarily stronger "in motion."

narrow discs feel looser in the hand at rest, but are stronger in motion.

wide discs feel stronger at rest, but are weaker in motion.

it's the physics of the finger angles and the rim wall. if your fingers go beyond and then come back at the rim vs. just barely getting around the rim...

Yes I know I remember. At this point I only can wait and see when I'm able to practice. Based on previous experience it is really first a matter of getting the timing of the hard squeezing that I'll have to get right. Before that there's not much point in squashing the disc between fingers.

There's no point in stationary squeezing power because it will never be used. It just is an indication of not having squeezed enough in the last year. This conclusion is based on the feeling of tension in the muscles between elbow and wrist and fingers.

I just hope that increased squeezing of fingers is offset by not allowing the disc to slip so that my fingers won't start to hurt after a couple of dozens of throws. Judging by previous comments ripping should more than compensate the increased pressure before ripping compared to slipping.

 

[CraigC]

If you copy/pasted all of JRs posts on this topic into Word, how many pages do you think it would take up? Are we in "novel" territory yet?

 

[Hoey1]

If you copy/pasted all of JRs posts on this topic into Word, how many pages do you think it would take up? Are we in "novel" territory yet?

I'm sorry to state I do not have the attention span fo rposts like that, sorry JR. Although, I am at work. I suppose I could get through it at home, but usually there are more pressing matters to attend to.

To answer your question.
42.
Or some multiple of 42.
always 42

 

[CraigC]

To answer your question.
42.
Or some multiple of 42.
always 42

Ahhh yes...but what is the ultimate question?

 

[Star Shark]

The Ultimate Question is:

What's a good score at the USDGC?


-- Animix

 

[discmonkey42]

To answer your question.
42.
Or some multiple of 42.
always 42

Ahhh yes...but what is the ultimate question?

The ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything?

 

[JR]

If you copy/pasted all of JRs posts on this topic into Word, how many pages do you think it would take up? Are we in "novel" territory yet?

As I've said on other topics that referenced this topic this was a fact finding mission.

I'm not yet near enough experienced enough to try to make decisions of what works best for me. I don't presume to know enough to be able to make a widely adaptable version of my findings. Like a manual to throwing 400'. I'll try to make a short version introduction once/if I get enough experience and data of what worked for me. And then expand the short list with explanations of what I trained for and how I got successes for those that don't want to do what I did. Reinvent the wheel for themselves. Don't expect results soon. I'm triple hurt physically now :-(