What turn the key is missing

[Sheep]

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I agree that people should learn how to throw on plane decently well first with no mid-swing tweaks and should learn a well-aligned and secure grip.

However, I think a large majority of people could learn a 'good grip' easily and be benefited by just using a standard power grip (for drives) and alignment (from between index and middle finger to down the center palm groove) and get used to it by actually sticking with it without caving so quickly to it not being the most comfortable grip or immediately believing they must be a special anatomically different case unless it's something major. When I first used the power grip, I was never like, 'wow it's so comfy, this is the grip for me!'. I practiced it until I got comfortable with it.

I should have briefly shown the exact power grip alignment I was using in my vid and mention basic throw fundamentals should be a first focus, but that tech disc series is meant to focus more on the test and comparison results and not teaching the entire throw.

What exactly is this pinky thing, use the pinky to tilt the disc's alignment in the palm? Most of what Dave says in that video I agree with, but some of it feels forced, as if he though, "I already mentioned a few fingers have a specific job, so now I need to come up with a special job for every finger so I can have a 'more complete sounding theory' for my seminars", when in reality you can cycle through the same different disc alignments through the palm whether you are using a power grip with 2, 3, or 4 fingers

 

[RowingBoats]

I agree that people should learn how to throw on plane decently well first with no mid-swing tweaks and should learn a well-aligned and secure grip.

However, I think a large majority of people could learn a 'good grip' easily and be benefited by just using a standard power grip (for drives) and alignment (from between index and middle finger to down the center palm groove) and get used to it by actually sticking with it without caving so quickly to it not being the most comfortable grip or immediately believing they must be a special anatomically different case unless it's something major. When I first used the power grip, I was never like, 'wow it's so comfy, this is the grip for me!'. I practiced it until I got comfortable with it.

I should have briefly shown the exact power grip alignment I was using in my vid and mention basic throw fundamentals should be a first focus, but that tech disc series is meant to focus more on the test and comparison results and not teaching the entire throw.

What exactly is this pinky thing, use the pinky to tilt the disc's alignment in the palm? Most of what Dave says in that video I agree with, but some of it feels forced, as if he though, "I already mentioned a few fingers have a specific job, so now I need to come up with a special job for every finger so I can have a 'more complete sounding theory' for my seminars", when in reality you can cycle through the same different disc alignments through the palm whether you are using a power grip with 2, 3, or 4 fingers

I think there is a lot to this for some people. I think Sheep also hints at this when he talks about overcoming the injury prevention movements caused by this being an overall odd feeling to do correctly. To me the 'power' of the swing is actually a very simple, genuinely intuitive pattern of movement that everyone has performed in some manner when moving other objects in their normal lives.

The grip though, and the wrist movement/positions, are highly unintuitive. To me, it felt outright uncomfortable and I don't think you can avoid this. You are correct to tell people to stick with it and figure out how to stick with it even through the uncomfortable time.

I am fully with Sheep with regards to learning how to throw 'nose neutral' or at least close to it, without introducing any arguably gimmicky movements/cues. It is incredibly hard to introduce some of these and maintain the integrity of an actually powerful swing.

If I were teaching someone in person, I would probably have a goal of NOT throwing majorly nose up, rather than an actual negative angle. I would heavily emphasize studying the position of the disc, in your grip, in relation to your forearm, and work to slowly have them throw with as close to a perfect 'plane' and unfolding dingle arm as possible, so they feel what the wrist has to do.

Its definitely not an easy thing to learn. It is probably the hardest thing about the swing.

 

[Brychanus]

I agree that this is one of the most confusing/frustrating areas for people, but also one of the most important...

I personally had the most success W/ chasing the dingle arm/sports crossover idea and swinging and throwing lots of other stuff too.

Discovering my most effective disc grips were more like figuring out what got the most leverage very late in the swing without having to "shoot a polar bear in a snowstorm." They work closer to Proctor's or Gurthie's than Kyle Klein's which I never would have guessed on my own. At first they felt really funky because I never thought of throwing a frisbee that way. Now I can't go back because everything else feels or works worse.

Some things are just solved faster by showing, doing, and some real time back and forth. I just had a coaching call and walked through various moves in real time with discs and other objects with 2, 3, and 4 fingers. I had to get him to connect the final part of the action through the release point with the rest of his body in a natural motion. I had him compare what he learned from the 2 finger grip about "lengthening" the move to what he gained from the other two. He understood what I was trying to teach him immediately because he realized the connection to other sports moves he had done. I had him do the extreme vertical plane Dingle Arm and explain how the plane could be changed for shallower or anhyzer angles. The wrist action and natural motion of the arm are there to be had and discovered. He also landed in braced tilt for the first time on his own as soon as we activated some of his golf muscle memory. Sometimes people just need certain cues. Whether or not they stick right away or at all is another matter.

 

[Brychanus]

What exactly is this pinky thing, use the pinky to tilt the disc's alignment in the palm? Most of what Dave says in that video I agree with, but some of it feels forced, as if he though, "I already mentioned a few fingers have a specific job, so now I need to come up with a special job for every finger so I can have a 'more complete sounding theory' for my seminars", when in reality you can cycle through the same different disc alignments through the palm whether you are using a power grip with 2, 3, or 4 fingers

The palm alignment is generally correct and can cross over between 2, 3, and 4 fingers, but notice there are more options there for you to discover interacting with the other finger pressures and in most natural motions more or less fingers changes the action a bit (whether or not you like or use them is probably a person-to-person variable).

I suggest trying moving around a ~2lb hammer or other instrument and swing it near your "release point" using 2, 3, then 4 fingers. Try to make the move as "long" as possible with 2 fingers and what changes or not with more fingers. Notice what makes the hammer head come around the fastest, most easily, with the least effort.

Notice that as you add fingers how the thumb and finger pressures can be manipulated, and how it changes how the instrument moves or could be leveraged near the release point.

I discovered things about the pinky in upshots first, then after I made my move as "long" as possible with 2 finger grips and added other fingers again, I noticed other opportunities for different effects. I only use a tiny minority of those when I actually throw (still always making sure the move is always as "long" as possible for drives), but I think they're there and people are showing similar things to some extent with their Tech Discs.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The palm alignment is generally correct and can cross over between 2, 3, and 4 fingers, but notice there are more options there for you to discover interacting with the other finger pressures and in most natural motions more or less fingers changes the action a bit (whether or not you like or use them is probably a person-to-person variable).

I suggest trying moving around a ~2lb hammer or other instrument and swing it near your "release point" using 2, 3, then 4 fingers. Try to make the move as "long" as possible with 2 fingers and what changes or not with more fingers. Notice what makes the hammer head come around the fastest, most easily, with the least effort.

Notice that as you add fingers how the thumb and finger pressures can be manipulated, and how it changes how the instrument moves or could be leveraged near the release point.

I discovered things about the pinky in upshots first, then after I made my move as "long" as possible with 2 finger grips and added other fingers again, I noticed other opportunities for different effects. I only use a tiny minority of those when I actually throw (still always making sure the move is always as "long" as possible for drives), but I think they're there and people are showing similar things to some extent with their Tech Discs.

Sounds like good stuff to try but right now I'm specifically asking about what exactly Dave's pinky finger adjustment is doing so I also know what sheep is agreeing with. How exactly is the pinky finger action described change the alignment of the disc through the palm, and which adjustment is supposed to be more nose down? I want to test the most nose up vs nose down grip adjustment that isn't a pronation / supination change and see how big it is. I doubt it's as big as what turn the key can produce without such an extreme grip change that you can barely throw / spin the disc out.

Interestingly, I already feel some extra grip security with same grip pressure effort when turning the key with good timing, but when combining it with curling the wrist dynamically into the power pocket, there was big synergy and increase in last second grip security which seemed to make turn the key even more effective and I got almost 10 degrees of nose down and more power with the same effort and surprisingly less wobble than my average when turning the key. I haven't tested wrist curl much though so we'll see what happens with more tests.

 

[Brychanus]

Sounds like good stuff to try but right now I'm specifically asking about what exactly Dave's pinky finger adjustment is doing so I also know what sheep is agreeing with. Because that adjustment doesn't actually require the pinky finger so I want to know what the real underlying adjustment is (disc alignment within the hand & palm). I want to see how big of a difference there is in nose angle from a nose-up grip vs a nose-down grip where the grip changes are not pronation / supination. I.e., if level of supination is maintained through the swing (and other things held constant as much as possible) but grip alignment is changed, how big of an impact does that have on nose angle? I suspect a smaller impact than turn the key is capable of producing. I'd guess 2-3 degrees with a normal grip adjustment that's not something so extreme that you can barley hold and throw the disc.

Interestingly, I already feel some extra grip security with same grip pressure effort when turning the key with good timing, but when combining it with curling the wrist dynamically into the power pocket, there was big synergy and increase in last second grip security which seemed to make turn the key even more effective and I got almost 10 degrees of nose down and more power with the same effort and surprisingly less wobble than my average when turning the key. I haven't tested wrist curl much though so we'll see what happens with more tests.

View attachment 335973

In that first part/clarification:

Are you asking about what happens if you force your forearm not to naturally rotate into the release point and then try to manipulate other variables?

Or more about what happens irrespective of that degree of whatever amount of natural rotation the arm uses?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

at 1:28 he is talking about the pinky changing the nose angle but it looks more like he is actually just pouring the tea vs the opposite of pouring the tea which you can do with the pinky in any of the positions he mentions or without the pinky on the disc at all. It looks like the disc alignment in the palm changes slightly, when he says nose up the disc is more towards the pinky side of the bottom of the palm.

So would the most nose up grip be with the disc further towards the pinky side of the bottom of the palm vs the other direction based on this?

 

[Brychanus]

at 1:28 he is talking about the pinky changing the nose angle but it looks more like he is actually just pouring the tea vs the opposite of pouring the tea which you can do with the pinky in any of the positions he mentions or without the pinky on the disc at all. It looks like the disc alignment in the palm changes slightly, when he says nose up the disc is more towards the pinky side of the bottom of the palm.

So would the most nose up grip be with the disc further towards the pinky side of the bottom of the palm vs the other direction based on this?

Oh thanks I get it. This is kind of what I was trying to say about the hammer tinkering. One way to say what Dave is saying is that as you move the pinky around in your grip it can be related to the overall leverage and orientation of the disc.

Like you (Neil) are asking, you can also isolate and manipulate the finger positions and pressures, to an extent. Something that confused me for a long time was that different people (including pros) are referring to different parts of the grip, but they may be referring to things that involve finger position, finger pressure (orientation and amplitude of pressure), degree of ulnar radiation or deviation, supination and pronation, and so on. Those things also interact with one another that don't seem obvious until you tinker around with it either in a "fixed analysis" like you're talking about, or a "natural motion pattern" like Sidewinder talks about.

I didn't get what Dave was saying about the pinky until I realized that he was changing his grip location while potentially keeping the pressure similar, which if you want similar (it's never exactly the "same" in an absolute sense I think) overall leverage on the disc at the wrist, it will tend to also be correlated with changes in forearm alignment.

Again, this is easier done than said - swing around something else heavier and you can hopefully get the intution for what I'm talking about.

Not sure where/what Sheep would emphasize, just one way I understood this.

 

[RowingBoats]

I don't think Dave is trying to say that the pinky has a job, he is just saying that in one particular grip, the pinky can manipulate the orientation of the disc in a relatively comfortable way. You can achieve the same orientation with lots of grips that don't even include a pinky at all.

IMO, understanding how important the orientation of the disc to your hand/lower arm is, will be by far the fastest way to fixing nose angle issues. I am fully with Sheep on this specific topic for sure.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

UPDATE: below image is outdated, here's the update:
Tech disc test driven development


Everyone is talking about how important this is but no one is giving a simple description of the disc's alignment in the hand / palm for some reason.

Aligning the disc from which letter to which number is the most nose up and which is the most nose down?

A2 is a common mistake that is usually described as nose up.
B2 is the most common default power grip alignment from what I've seen.
B3 is not uncommon
B4 or passed 4 is what slingshot I believe describes using and I've heard a few others use.
C2 requires longer fingers on wide rim drivers, if B2 is more nose down than A2 then C2 should be more nose down than B2.

Seems like Dave might've been suggestion moving from 2 to 3 is more nose up.

 

[RowingBoats]

Everyone is talking about how important this is but no one is giving a simple description of the disc's alignment in the hand / palm for some reason.

Aligning the disc from which letter to which number is the most nose up and which is the most nose down?

A2 is a common mistake that is usually described as nose up.
B2 is the most common default power grip alignment from what I've seen.
B3 is not uncommon
B4 or passed 4 is what slingshot I believe describes using and I've heard a few others use.
C2 requires longer fingers on wide rim drivers, if B2 is more nose down than A2 then C2 should be more nose down than B2.

Seems like Dave might've been suggestion moving from 2 to 3 is more nose up.

View attachment 335985

In general, I think I agree with everything you said about alignment, but wrist flexibility and hand size are going to factor in. After getting used to it, I think I have a relatively flexible wrist and my 'pour the coffee' (lol i do hate this term) position makes it so that B2 is the most accurate description of my own grip.

There is an alignment of the grip/disc/forearm that I would call close to parallel. Thinking through this, I can see why some of this language is problematic because the outline of the forearm is not two straight lines, so this is a general concept, not meant to be super scientific.

You can grip a disc with B2 orientation in the hand, and either over/under 'pour the coffee'. Sometimes I think that people believe that pouring the coffee means exaggerating it to the maximum extent, and this can lead to nose up, oddly.

 

[Brychanus]

Everyone is talking about how important this is but no one is giving a simple description of the disc's alignment in the hand / palm for some reason.

Aligning the disc from which letter to which number is the most nose up and which is the most nose down?

A2 is a common mistake that is usually described as nose up.
B2 is the most common default power grip alignment from what I've seen.
B3 is not uncommon
B4 or passed 4 is what slingshot I believe describes using and I've heard a few others use.
C2 requires longer fingers on wide rim drivers, if B2 is more nose down than A2 then C2 should be more nose down than B2.

Seems like Dave might've been suggestion moving from 2 to 3 is more nose up.

View attachment 335985

Helpful to frame the discussion, thanks Neil!

Also think I would agree, I am just trying to point out that finger position, pressure points/leverage matter for the action into the release which is part of what determines the nose angle at release, not just the alignment of the hand to the disc.

Edit/example: I think I used to try to force my grip through B2 to maximize the "parallel" idea RB is talking about, but that started to create joint problems for me, and it gradually changed to closer to B3, and it works heading into the release due to the way my arm action unfolds in the highest-leverage patterns with an emphasis on thumb pressure heading toward the release point (I think Philo's works kind of like this, I know Sidewinder's does, I'm slightly less sure about GG/Simon but probably, etc). I don't think it's a coincidence I also get more leverage throwing hammers, dumbbells, balls, weight plates etc the "same" way. None of this made any sense to me reading all the words people said until I tried various things and kept getting nudged patiently in that direction by Sidewinder. On the other hand, I learned a lot about other grips that for one reason or another just don't really get the most out of my move. I may discover yet another one again, who knows.

No two people's arms and forms are "exactly" alike, which is why I personally don't generalize from any one case & encourage asking questions and exploring. Golfers spend a ton of time working on grips, pitchers work on grips, etc. As you're pointing out here there are a few options. I would expect there to be some general patterns like A2 is usually "wrong," but what is "right" for each person is still worth talking about IMHO.

 

[RowingBoats]

Helpful to frame the discussion, thanks Neil -

Also think I would agree, I am just trying to point out that finger position, pressure points/leverage matter for the action into the release which is part of what determines the nose angle at release, not just the alignment of the hand to the disc.

Ya, I think you can throw nose down with a bunch of different hand/disc orientations. It is the hand/disc/forearm orientation that matters (IMO).

And then it is just a matter of not doing something that accidentally alters this during your swing.

This is why I am not personally a fan of these new active movement cues.

 

[Brychanus]

Ya, I think you can throw nose down with a bunch of different hand/disc orientations. It is the hand/disc/forearm orientation that matters (IMO).

And then it is just a matter of not doing something that accidentally alters this during your swing.

This is why I am not personally a fan of these new active movement cues.

Oh I don't know if this was your experience, but one thing that understandably causes people to raise their eyebrows about hammers is that they are obviously not discs. I also found it hard for a while to figure out how it related to "whipping" the end of a light object. The real cool thing about hammers is that they are teaching your arm one way how to move for force that minimizes harm to your joints.

Just to mess up the momentum of this thread and stir the pot, but relevant IMHO: here's Will Shusterick in his old form when he was distinctly telling people not to "come" around" and to "pull." You can imagine that if you take that move literally and develop it that way, you're going to have a somewhat different leverage chain action between those two extremes. Sidewinder might point out that what Will is calling a pull is more like a version of his "dingle arm" where the elbow hinges from the shoulder and the disc comes "out" then "in" then back "out" relative to Will's posture on an out-in-out pattern. The "swingier" "come around" move Will mentioned is not exactly what dingle arm means once you understand it. Chris Taylor would emphasize the linearity of the move and humeral abduction phase into the deep pocket toward the target. However you want to frame it or which part you emphasize, you probably want get whatever your "natural" kinetic transfer for your arm into that athletic move, and finding the best one takes time and work.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Hold up. How are B and C possible without Bonopane type grips??

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Hold up. How are B and C possible without Bonopane type grips??

More parts of your index finger are touching than just the letter because the index finger is wrapping around the rim, but the initial contact is on the letter, and so when the disk starts at B and goes to two you can then curl your index finger around the rim without moving the disk, so that it remains in that spot, but on white rim drivers, it will feel like you're in index finger can barely reach around the rim from that position unless you have pretty long fingers.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Ya, I think you can throw nose down with a bunch of different hand/disc orientations. It is the hand/disc/forearm orientation that matters (IMO).

And then it is just a matter of not doing something that accidentally alters this during your swing.

This is why I am not personally a fan of these new active movement cues.

Every 'active' (I use dynamic vs static) cue I've tried has been more effective for nose down than static. I just tried holding max supination for the full swing and couldn't get much nose down with it. It's the dynamic supination motion that seems make the supination effective for nose down unless I just want able to maintain the supination properly or it causes me to change my normal swing motion.

Haven't tried dynamically pouring tea though.

 

[Brychanus]

More parts of your index finger are touching than just the letter because the index finger is wrapping around the rim, but the initial contact is on the letter, and so when the disk starts at B and goes to two you can then curl your index finger around the rim without moving the disk, so that it remains in that spot, but on white rim drivers, it will feel like you're in index finger can barely reach around the rim from that position unless you have pretty long fingers.

Just tried different rims out since I second guessed lol

Does seem like what I wrote earlier is about right - B2 to B3 was a "better" change for me. B2 would kind of "block" that extra little bit of natural supination entering the release and "saw off" the tip of my whip.* B3 is most like where I get power from anything I put in my hand. I messed a little at B4 seems like I might play with that a little. I think I get slightly less leverage but not sure.

Anything at A seems like it gets weird releases, the leverage is poor no matter what I hold (disc or not), and is probably coming out nose up if I had TechDisc to measure. To get it to "work" I had to make my arm move through a motion that feels like it would chew at my joints quickly even when I messed around with many of the variables we mentioned above.

C grips don't really let me get my fingers all the way in there (short fingers, especially index).

Anyway, just one anecdote FWIW. Play around with grip and see whatcha learn!

*I would think in addition to anatomy there are people who benefit from alignments closer to this one with certain throwing styles.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Hold up. How are B and C possible without Bonopane type grips??

See how the alignment is preserved after opening the hand?

B-2: my index barley reaches on 12 speeds
C-2: my index barely reaches on 7 speed but people with long fingers can probably use it. Not sure if it has advantages tho compared to B-2.