Would you like to see the PDGA limit number of disc carried in tournaments?

[bradharris]

I'm making this up, but suppose there's a particular roller shot or something that you almost never need to do, but when you do, you use disc #28 in your bag to do it. You have this shot one out of every five to ten rounds.

I think if you're limited and thus choose not to take that disc, and then you face the shot that it requires, asking you to make another disc do your bidding is a display of more skill than just taking out disc #28 and making the same old roller throw you always make and letting the disc do the work.

That phrase illustrates what I mean: "letting the disc do the work." With too many discs, the balance shifts too much toward just having the right disc and shifts away from the player's own skill level.

It would also require more skill if you had to alternate between throwing from the left side of your body, the right side of your body and overhead. That doesn't mean it's a good rule.

 

[armiller]

:|

Let's all just stop talking about golf at all.

My position and arguments for it remain exactly the same. They have nothing to do with what golf does or doesn't do, or what piece of equipment relates to what other piece of equipment.

I guess this is what I get for answering a poll without reading 10 pages of posts.

You want to stop talking about golf? It's pretty stinkin relevant to this discussion, since the PGA does limit clubs, and also because we decided to name our sport after another existing sport. I'm not willing to go read through all your posts to figure out exactly what you're arguing... However, you're probably right about fewer discs requiring more skill. The "lost disc" factor is actually my only problem with limiting bagged discs. (Unless you're talking about a really low number like 10)

 

[93EXCivic]

I'm making this up, but suppose there's a particular roller shot or something that you almost never need to do, but when you do, you use disc #28 in your bag to do it. You have this shot one out of every five to ten rounds.

I think if you're limited and thus choose not to take that disc, and then you face the shot that it requires, asking you to make another disc do your bidding is a display of more skill than just taking out disc #28 and making the same old roller throw you always make and letting the disc do the work.

That phrase illustrates what I mean: "letting the disc do the work." With too many discs, the balance shifts too much toward just having the right disc and shifts away from the player's own skill level.

But you still have to know the disc well enough to execute said shot and that is a skill by itself. I have never seen a disc fly without being told what to do.

Even if I agreed that having more discs takes away from the skill required, I still think it is a bad idea for a rule because one there are already too many rules and two it hurts the disc manufacturers, the bag and cart makers and disc golf retailers who help support this game.

 

[zenbot]

But you still have to know the disc well enough to execute said shot and that is a skill by itself. I have never seen a disc fly without being told what to do.

Right. I have several Wraiths that I cycle. You wouldn't be able to pick a random one out of my bag and know exactly what it will do.

 

[iacas]

So would you say with the rules the way they are now that less skilled players win over more skilled ones because of the discs?

Occasionally, sure. Fewer discs would shift the balance back to requiring more skill.

If you play a pro, let's call him Paul, and you all get to use whatever discs you want, he'll beat you by 14. Force both of you to use a Firebird for every shot, or a Polecat, and he'll beat you by more. Fewer discs will increase the separation and put more emphasis on skill.

Whether you've used 20 discs to get to this point on the course or just 5 doesn't mean anything. The objective remains the same: Use equipment that meets a certain set of technical standards in an effort to complete the hole in as few throws as possible.

Nobody's debating that the objective wouldn't remain the same.

It would also require more skill if you had to alternate between throwing from the left side of your body, the right side of your body and overhead. That doesn't mean it's a good rule.

We're not discussing a rule like that. You can't just make up analogies like that, because I could make up something equally as silly that supports the opposite perspective.

It's pretty stinkin relevant to this discussion, since the PGA does limit clubs,

a) The PGA does not limit clubs. The USGA/R&A do.
b) It's not relevant. They're two different sports.

However, you're probably right about fewer discs requiring more skill. The "lost disc" factor is actually my only problem with limiting bagged discs. (Unless you're talking about a really low number like 10)

a) I'm talking about 10-20. Maybe even 10-15.
b) If they put in a limit, they could possibly also allow substitution for lost discs with identical molds. i.e. throw your Roc into the water, grab another Roc from your car when you make the turn.

But you still have to know the disc well enough to execute said shot and that is a skill by itself. I have never seen a disc fly without being told what to do.

Oh brother. It's about MORE or LESS skill, not "I have never seen a disc fly without being told what to do." Telling a disc what to do is the skill. Being able to change how you throw is a skill.

I still think it is a bad idea for a rule because one there are already too many rules

Uhhhh… okay? Compared to what? Disc golf's rules book is actually pretty damn small. This change would add, what, 1/4 a page?

and two it hurts the disc manufacturers

That's why I think it will not BE the rule any time soon, but you can't weigh their interests above doing what's best or right for the sport.

 

[93EXCivic]

Uhhhh… okay? Compared to what? Disc golf's rules book is actually pretty damn small. This change would add, what, 1/4 a page?


That's why I think it will not BE the rule any time soon, but you can't weigh their interests above doing what's best or right for the sport.

Exactly and it should say as small as possible. Rules shouldn't be add unless it is absolutely necessary.

I don't think this rule is any way what is best or right for the sport and the fact it could hurt the companies that sponsors events and create innovations for the sport is just icing on the cake.

 

[bradharris]

We're not discussing a rule like that. You can't just make up analogies like that, because I could make up something equally as silly that supports the opposite perspective.

We're talking about adding restrictions which will give a greater advantage to more skilled players. In that sense, my proposal has just as much merit as yours.

It's not relevant. They're two different sports.

It actually is relevant because it's the closest analogy we have in all sports. In fact, it seems to be the most compelling argument in favor of this idea. To say we need a limit in an effort to widen the scoring margin implies that we have a problem that needs to be fixed. I've seen no compelling arguments that this is actually the case.

There are also a number of consequences to implementing a disc limit at this point.

Most obviously, you're immediately disadvantaging players who have built their game around using a wide variety of discs. It's unfair to now tell those players that they have to cut their bags in half in order to compete. More than likely, you'd see a high number of those players quitting organized disc golf altogether as a result.

There are also much smaller consequences. For instance, a lot of players (myself included) carry multiples of the same putter. I do it for two reasons, it's nice to have an extra for before the horn warm-ups, and I generally don't use a mini for putts, when I miss, I just grab the second one for the comeback putt. It's a little thing, but with a restrictive disc limit, the use of a second putter probably goes away in favor of keeping something else in the bag.

You'd also likely see a very different attitude towards stroke-and-distance. If you're using a limited set of discs, and throw OB on a S&D scenario, you're then likely forced to use a very different strategy on the next shot rather than just being able to grab a backup to try the same shot again. this, IMO, is overly punitive.

 

[armiller]

a) The PGA does not limit clubs. The USGA/R&A do.

Okay. I guess I mean that "golf" limits clubs. Same difference, as far as game play goes. That's beside the point.

b) It's not relevant. They're two different sports.

Sure they're two sports, but to fail to see any relevance seems ignorant to me. I guess we can agree to disagree.

a) I'm talking about 10-20. Maybe even 10-15.

I think 10-15 might be low, though it would certainly add some interesting elements to the game. If disc golf heads in this direction, it might have to be a course dependent or condition dependent, or dictated by each tournament director.

b) If they put in a limit, they could possibly also allow substitution for lost discs with identical molds. i.e. throw your Roc into the water, grab another Roc from your car when you make the turn.

That doesn't seem practical, but obviously something similar would have to be allowed.

 

[iacas]

Exactly and it should say as small as possible. Rules shouldn't be add unless it is absolutely necessary.

I don't think this rule is any way what is best or right for the sport and the fact it could hurt the companies that sponsors events and create innovations for the sport is just icing on the cake.

As you can imagine, I feel the opposite. I think it warrants inclusion.

We're talking about adding restrictions which will give a greater advantage to more skilled players. In that sense, my proposal has just as much merit as yours.

No. Your "proposal" is much farther out there. It's hyperbole.

And again, I could make an equally silly proposal that supports my point, and it would be just as irrelevant as yours.

It actually is relevant because it's the closest analogy we have in all sports.

:\

To say we need a limit in an effort to widen the scoring margin implies that we have a problem that needs to be fixed. I've seen no compelling arguments that this is actually the case.

Compelling is your opinion. I feel the opposite, and I feel the time is now.

There's a decent amount of separation in disc golf right now because relatively few people play it or attempt to play it at the highest level. If disc golf became 10x more popular, or had 10x the money put in it, you'd see the separation among players tighten considerably.

Most obviously, you're immediately disadvantaging players who have built their game around using a wide variety of discs.

So? Rules change.

By this logic rules would never change because it may disadvantage someone who was good at the rules the old way.

If they ever change jump putting or moving past your lie as part of your throwing motion (or whatever), some players will be more disadvantaged than others. If they felt it was the right thing to do, though, they should do it.

Same here.

More than likely, you'd see a high number of those players quitting organized disc golf altogether as a result.

Heck, I didn't know we could just make things up and use that as evidence or proof!

There are also much smaller consequences. For instance, a lot of players (myself included) carry multiples of the same putter. I do it for two reasons, it's nice to have an extra for before the horn warm-ups, and I generally don't use a mini for putts, when I miss, I just grab the second one for the comeback putt. It's a little thing, but with a restrictive disc limit, the use of a second putter probably goes away in favor of keeping something else in the bag.

So? Use a mini. Or tap in with the driver you're using on the next tee for all I care.

You'd also likely see a very different attitude towards stroke-and-distance. If you're using a limited set of discs, and throw OB on a S&D scenario, you're then likely forced to use a very different strategy on the next shot rather than just being able to grab a backup to try the same shot again. this, IMO, is overly punitive.

I disagree. I think it increases the strategy. I think that's a good thing.

 

[tampabay]

If they added a disc limit of anything lower than 40 (I carry 25) I'd almost certainly not-renew my PDGA membership.

I don't want to artificially make the game harder in a way that I don't find fun. The feeling of pulling out a disc and throwing the perfect shot is so satisfying. The reason I don't carry 10 discs now is because I like carrying 25. I especially don't want to be limited in my number of discs because someone deems this way of playing the sport better.

Not having a disc limit allows you to carry 10 and me to carry 30. If you think it takes more skill to throw 10, then throw 10. Or practice with 10 and then carry 30 in tournies. It seems controlling to put a rule on players because someone deems fewer discs as more skilled.

 

[DanJon]

Combine courses with lots of water hazards, and a shotgun start event, and you have a textbook reason why a disc limit should never come to be. Groups who get the high risk of disc loss holes early in their round shouldn't potentially be deprived of tools that people getting the water holes late had access to prior.

I'm quoting this again because it doesn't mention golf at all and the people for limiting the number of discs haven't responded to it.

 

[zenbot]

Weather conditions can also drastically change within a round. Wind can pick up. It can start raining. I don't think the "skill" argument should nullify a player's want to be prepared for anything that comes their way.

 

[zenbot]

There's part of my course near a lake. In the afternoon the wind can go from almost nothing up to 30 mile gusts. Is bag-limiting fair for players that play the windy part of the course later in the day? The earlier players can safely leave out discs while the later players have to be more selective knowing that they'll be contending with the wind.

 

[Steve West]

To those who would like to see a limit:

I think this is the kind of thing that would need to be tested before being adopted. To do that, we need to have a set of experimental rules that TDs can adopt.

What specific rules would you like to see? We'd need rules that cover all situations, like what is the punishment, how is it enforced, what to do when all discs are lost, when can discs be added or replaced, are the number of molds limited, how much discretion does the TD have in setting the number, etc.

Time to be constructive.

 

[scarpfish]

how is it enforced,

This alone would be a nightmare, and one more thing that a TD would have to deal with, that he/she doesn't have time for.

 

[iacas]

If they added a disc limit of anything lower than 40 (I carry 25) I'd almost certainly not-renew my PDGA membership.

I don't want to artificially make the game harder in a way that I don't find fun. The feeling of pulling out a disc and throwing the perfect shot is so satisfying. The reason I don't carry 10 discs now is because I like carrying 25. I especially don't want to be limited in my number of discs because someone deems this way of playing the sport better.

Not having a disc limit allows you to carry 10 and me to carry 30. If you think it takes more skill to throw 10, then throw 10. Or practice with 10 and then carry 30 in tournies. It seems controlling to put a rule on players because someone deems fewer discs as more skilled.

Cool. That's fine, and it's your opinion. You get to have it, and I get to have mine. It's all good.

The ruling body of a sport can only care so much about what you find "fun." They have other things to weigh too, like safety, competitiveness, skill/equipment balance, cost, ease of application… etc. I'm not saying all of those (and the many factors I didn't list) play a role here. Just discussing any rules change in general. They consider more than "will tampabay find it more fun?"

The NHL is (supposedly) shrinking the size of goalie equipment. They have to keep it big enough to ensure the safety of the goalies, but they want to make it smaller because goalscoring is down, and today's bigger goalies are using bigger equipment… so they feel that it will help restore the competitive balance to shrink it slightly.

The mound in baseball was raised in 1969 because 1968 was "The Year of the Pitcher." Etc. Pitchers undoubtedly had more fun in 1968 than 1969!

I'm quoting this again because it doesn't mention golf at all and the people for limiting the number of discs haven't responded to it.

Life - and sports - aren't fair. Sometimes players start on tougher holes and ruin their round before they can get going. Sometimes the wind or rain or other weather changes for some players but not others. Sometimes a player's disc hits a stick and stops, and other times the disc misses the stick and rolls 50' away. Luck of the draw.

Sports rules can't really concern themselves too much with trying to govern luck, good or bad.

And as I'll write below, allow replacements (same plastic/mold or maybe just same mold) optionally to the TD for shotgun starts. Then it won't matter what hole you start on, you'll still be limited to x number of discs.

Or don't, because again, life (and sports) aren't fair. Sometimes you get a bad draw. Sometimes you get a good one. It tends to balance out.

Is bag-limiting fair for players that play the windy part of the course later in the day? The earlier players can safely leave out discs while the later players have to be more selective knowing that they'll be contending with the wind.

They also, you know… have completely different weather conditions. So maybe all players should play the same holes at the exact same time? That way nobody has different weather conditions at all?

Of course not. You can't legislate everything. Sometimes you get a good break; sometimes a bad one.

I think this is the kind of thing that would need to be tested before being adopted. To do that, we need to have a set of experimental rules that TDs can adopt.

It won't even get that far. I still support it, though.

What specific rules would you like to see? We'd need rules that cover all situations, like what is the punishment, how is it enforced, what to do when all discs are lost, when can discs be added or replaced, are the number of molds limited, how much discretion does the TD have in setting the number, etc.

Almost off the top of my head:
- 12 discs, any combination of molds.
- If a thrown disc is not readily retrievable, it's lost for the remainder of the round. (If you can retrieve it between rounds, go for it.) Perhaps make this one optional for shotgun starts.
- Penalty for breach: one stroke per disc (over the limit) per hole (carried, whether used or not). So if "Peter" has 14 discs and doesn't notice until before he throws off his third tee, the penalty is four (two discs, two holes).

That's it. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated.

And like I said, there's basically no chance this is adopted any time soon, but I still think it should be.

This alone would be a nightmare, and one more thing that a TD would have to deal with, that he/she doesn't have time for.

Why? Because disc golfers try to cheat and can't be relied upon to police themselves? Are disc golfers that dishonest?

The TD shouldn't have to worry about anything.

 

[sillybizz]

Why would it be better? I don't get how limiting the number of discs improves the quality of the sport at a grassroots level. Cause honestly I don't give a damn about the pros.

This.

 

[zenbot]

You can't legislate everything.

Thank you for concisely stating why I'm opposed to your idea. :thmbup:

 

[PBokor]

There's part of my course near a lake. In the afternoon the wind can go from almost nothing up to 30 mile gusts. Is bag-limiting fair for players that play the windy part of the course later in the day? The earlier players can safely leave out discs while the later players have to be more selective knowing that they'll be contending with the wind.

Same here. No lake, but a raging river which allows no chance of recovery for an errant throw. Most days from 6 am to 11 am, almost no wind. After 1100 hrs. until dusk, 10-20 mph variable and swirling winds. My AM bag is much smaller than my PM bag and my scores are always better.

 

[DavidSauls]

To those who would like to see a limit:

I think this is the kind of thing that would need to be tested before being adopted. To do that, we need to have a set of experimental rules that TDs can adopt.

What specific rules would you like to see? We'd need rules that cover all situations, like what is the punishment, how is it enforced, what to do when all discs are lost, when can discs be added or replaced, are the number of molds limited, how much discretion does the TD have in setting the number, etc.

Time to be constructive.

And someone to ask the PDGA for a waiver, run a few X-tiers, and see how the players like it.

My guess is that they won't.

It looks to me like an awful lot of players like throwing a wide assortment of discs in a round. Arguments that they could demonstrate more skill by throwing fewer isn't likely to persuade a lot of them that a rule change is in order.

But, hey, I could be wrong. Somebody prove me so. It wouldn't matter to me, since I carry 12-15.