I played with Climo at the Memorial in '02. I maxed at 390' back then and he was easily out driving me around 40' to 60' on the long holes. Valks were the longest disc at the time.
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Well..you already know how I feel about your distance estimations. j/k And btw..I'm not saying Climo couldn't throw past 350, I have no idea what his max distance was, I'm just saying I've never seen it on video (yes I know no Jomez) and he probably didn't need to throw that far to win those championships. When did you see him throw 450? What course/hole was that? That's a huge bomb for a backhand player back in the day.
Jump ahead 20 years from now and for the sake of the discussion McBeth never won another Worlds title. Everyone would then agree Climo was the best.
Same with present day, Mcbeth only has 5 World titles so it's too early to say if he will end up winning more than Climo has. If he keeps this pace up there's a good chance he will but he has not done it yet.
This is an area where the equipment absolutely does matter. No way you could use a modern putt on the baskets Climo was putting on. His pitch putt was specifically designed to be caught by the baskets of the day. Back then players didn't complain about spit outs, they modified their putt to stick in the baskets that they had. To your point, yes McBeth would dominate on modern baskets, but he would have to change significantly to be successful in the KC era.
Hip/back injury.Why can't Climo play now?
If you can throw 300' with accuracy you can shoot a good score on any course.
I don't know when the last time he played was but maybe he just sucks now. If not let's get him out there.
If you listen to the episode of The Buzzz with MJ he specifically talks about how people complained about various baskets back in the day, and how then, just like now, a great player adjusts to make it work. I don't think McBeth is suddenly a second class putter if you stuck him on Mach 2s.
You should also check out Paul's video of him practicing with no band/chains. He drills low on the pole putt after putt after putt after putt.
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If you listen to the episode of The Buzzz with MJ he specifically talks about how people complained about various baskets back in the day, and how then, just like now, a great player adjusts to make it work. I don't think McBeth is suddenly a second class putter if you stuck him on Mach 2s.
You should also check out Paul's video of him practicing with no band/chains. He drills low on the pole putt after putt after putt after putt.
Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk
Hip/back injury.
Why can't Climo play now?
If you can throw 300' with accuracy you can shoot a good score on any course.
I don't know when the last time he played was but maybe he just sucks now. If not let's get him out there.
Hip/back injury.
Climo won 12x in MPO and 3x in Masters age divisions for 15x total. Is that correct? If so, I could definitely can see Paul winning another 7 in MPO and taking down several more in the master's division(s). I'm also guessing Paul will have the luxury of better training, medical, etc, due to financial opportunities allowing him stay focused just on disc golf his entire career.
Let's don't overlook Paige Pierce, the race to 16x could be won by a female.
In addition to collecting world championships, I've heard Climo wasn't to shabby at freestyle.
All clock, all day. He can gitis and scarecrow and do other restricted catches. He makes good sets and naturally has good throws for Zs. I'll link some video if I can find it.
"best" and "greatest" are very different. Climo is the greatest. Paul is the best.If, AND ONLY IF, your definition of "best ever" equals something like "who had the highest rating ever," or "who played the best at a single point and time ever." By that standard, you must consider that two years before Paul hit 1046, I believe Feldberg did. So are we now saying the discussion is between Feldberg and McBeth? I think not. Not very many considered Feldberg the GOAT, even for a short period of time.
In my definition, "the best ever" includes domination in terms of winning overall, winning the biggest events, maintaining that high rating, etc. over a time. And Champ still has that. If your definition is something else then, cool, I get it. It's just not what I consider "the best ever."
We can say with accuracy what he did do in his circumstances. In discussing the best - circumstances always play a role. Who would have been the greatest player in disc golf in the 1990s if the sport was big enough to absorb thousands more athletes from various backgrounds? Using your same what-if level questions, we can extrapolate from today's game that Climo would not have dominated the 1990s, just like you're extrapolating that Climo could have been better than Paul in the 2010s.A person CAN'T with any accuracy say Ken would have still maxed at a 1042-1044 rating in today's game -- you truly do not know that. You can't say he wouldn't have stayed in that range for 6 years; heck, having seen Kenny play I believe (with my own eyes) that Champ might have been 1050+ for 10 years. But similarly, no one can say that either with any accuracy.
I agree with that for "GOAT" but not for "Best."GOAT or "best ever" discussions are an exercise in both opinion and value system at best. To me (and not just in disc golf) I consider the best ever in any sport to be he/she who showed the greatest level of dominance at his game over time.
Paul retires or gets hurt today he has no chance to be considered the GOAT. Best - sure. Not that he will be in a few generations. But right now he is.I'm not saying Paul might not one day be the best ever; I'm just saying he isn't yet. If he were as you and others might believe, then you'd have to agree that if he retired or had a career-ending injury tomorrow, you'd still consider him the GOAT.
One thing's for sure... he stopped dominating the big events at nearly the same level almost as soon as he hit the age of 30. The field got right up on his ass at about that time. If Paul can stay a full step ahead of the field through his 30s - he clearly supersedes Climo as the GOAT as well as the fully realized best.And finally, ratings weren't even a part of disc golf until 1998; Champ had 8 World Titles by then and was already in his 30s. We LITERALLY don't know what his rating was while he was dominating from 1990-1997.
I don't think I'd go that far... dude's 30 and has already had seasons impacted by the wear and tear on his body. His comeback last year was incredible, and if he can stay smart and keep on the rehab when things break down he should be able to continue ripping the competition apart for another decade. But he's DEFINITELY moving into the back half of his prime.He has 5 world titles and i dont even think he has hit his prime.
Gretzky vs. Crosby
Jordan vs. James
The parameters in which these kind of assessments should be made don't overlap. It's just the transcendence of great players. There is (maybe ) always going to be someone that is one of a kind.
I don't think I'd go that far... dude's 30 and has already had seasons impacted by the wear and tear on his body. His comeback last year was incredible, and if he can stay smart and keep on the rehab when things break down he should be able to continue ripping the competition apart for another decade. But he's DEFINITELY moving into the back half of his prime.