McBeth vs. Climo

[DiscFifty]

It all boils down to who is the better putter. I'll take McBeth's putting over Climo's anytime. Btw.. I've looked around, and I haven't really found any info on how far Climo could throw. I've seen some posts with him throwing 350, but nothing further. Compared to Stokley back in the same period was apparently bombing 400+ in events all day long. btw..that facebook page is gone. lol.. Would Paul even chimed in if he was still with Innova?

 

[Jay Dub]

It all boils down to who is the better putter. I'll take McBeth's putting over Climo's anytime. Btw.. I've looked around, and I haven't really found any info on how far Climo could throw. I've seen some posts with him throwing 350, but nothing further. Compared to Stokley back in the same period was apparently bombing 400+ in events all day long. btw..that facebook page is gone. lol.. Would Paul even chimed in if he was still with Innova?

Is this some type of proof that Climo only threw 350'? Because that's not true at all.
I watched him play many times against the competition including Stokely. Most of what is said about his game and competitors now days come from people who weren't even there.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYbXnl25_vg&feature=youtu.be

Here's home footage of the 1998 DGLO I just put up on YouTube. Watch some new footage of The Champ here! And Stokely, and Mike Moser, and both Rico brothers.

 

[BigFlickLuke]

Did Climo have a strong forehand, or roller game? I admit I don't have much experience watching Climo play but he seemed to be primarily a backhand player in what I have seen. Paul to me doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. So Paul = GOAT to me

He had the strongest backhand, roller, and putting game in the world. At the same time.

Courses didn't demand a forehand then; Ken won 23 of 26 tournaments he entered without a forehand. Plastic wasn't then as forehand friendly as it is today.

If Paul was the elder and Ken still on the upon tour, you can bet your house that Ken would have a forehand.

Jordan was born into a world when the NBA didn't have a three point line. If Jordan was at UNC today, there's no question he would shoot more threes throughout his nba career. No one is questioning Jordan's greatest because he didn't make as many threes as guys that came after him.

It's pretty clear that Jordan had a great shot. If he saw it necessary to win, he'd have no problem shooting some more longer shots, while still being the deadliest driving guard to ever play. In his best long range season, he shot 260+ threes on over 40% from distance. It's very different than most of his other three point stats.

Ken obviously had elite arm speed. There's no question in my mind that he could have thrown a long forehand. With Ken's nba-esque elite hand size and arm length, I think he would have had a whip of a forehand.

There was never a time in his twenties where Ken dropped three world championships in a row. That's the difference to me.

You can say Ricky is better than Barry. That's an argument that I could see myself on either side.

They both can claim they've taken a world's where a prime Big Boss Doss was competing.

I just don't see anyone ever winning world's by 18 strokes again.

 

[Dingus]

The original premise of the argument is flawed, no? The more 1000 rated players there are, the less you are dominating the field. Simply by being so dominant Climo could suppress the ratings of all other players that played with him. In addition, more 1000 rated players doesn't necessarily mean the 1000 rated players are that much better, it could also mean that there are a lot of less talented propagators inflating the ratings of the better ones.

Plastic wasn't then as forehand friendly as it is today.

In my opinion this is not accurate. How can you say a Viper or whippet isn't forehand friendly? And back in the day the big forehand drives I saw were with Cyclones.

It all boils down to who is the better putter. I'll take McBeth's putting over Climo's anytime.

This is an area where the equipment absolutely does matter. No way you could use a modern putt on the baskets Climo was putting on. His pitch putt was specifically designed to be caught by the baskets of the day. Back then players didn't complain about spit outs, they modified their putt to stick in the baskets that they had. To your point, yes McBeth would dominate on modern baskets, but he would have to change significantly to be successful in the KC era.

 

[BigFlickLuke]

How can you say a Viper or whippet isn't forehand friendly?

Because DX plastic doesn't hold stability long enough to trust consistently on power forehands.

It's no surprise that forehand usage went up across the tour when premium plastics and faster molds became readily available.

I aced with a whippet this week, but it wasn't a DX whippet.

 

[Dingus]

Because DX plastic doesn't hold stability long enough to trust consistently on power forehands.

It's no surprise that forehand usage went up across the tour when premium plastics and faster molds became readily available.

I aced with a whippet this week, but it wasn't a DX whippet.

In my experience, the lack of forehand originally is because players were coming from a freestyle or MTA background. The entire sport of disc golf was originally propagated from the freestyle scene. Those guys could flick a lid for spin, but no way could they flick a disc for distance.

Big forehands came around when the second wave of disc golf expansion happened around 2000. More kids were picking it up as their first frisbee sport and often they had a baseball background leading the forehand to be a more natural throw. You would see packs of high school kids throwing forehand noob hyzers because they had literally never thrown a frisbee before outside of a backyard barbecue.

Have you ever tried to beat a Viper into a turnover disc? It takes years. I have NEVER seen a flippy max weight whippet.

 

[BigFlickLuke]

Have you ever tried to beat a Viper into a turnover disc? It takes years. I have NEVER seen a flippy max weight whippet.

I guess that depends on your terrain. I've ruined older DX discs in under a week. Only takes a few high speed hits on a rock or sturdy tree to permanently change a baseline 90s disc. This is especially true in very cold or very hot temperatures.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Is this some type of proof that Climo only threw 350'? Because that's not true at all.
I watched him play many times against the competition including Stokely. Most of what is said about his game and competitors now days come from people who weren't even there.

I remember watching a distance clinic he did with GG and Feldberg at the 2011 Collegiate Nationals. He threw a shot and said something to the effect of "I'll take my 425 in the fairway all day." Granted, he was throwing wraiths and destroyers at that point, but he was also masters age. I think he was definitely capable of throwing 400+ throughout his career.

 

[F. Howl]

I prefer that current leading figures in any popular field of activity express more humility and more appreciation for previous leaders in that field, like Isaac Newton's supposed quote:
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

Paul stands to gain nothing of value by diminishing Climo's legacy. He easily could lose the respect of those who find it distasteful.

The picture that Paul put into his Facebook post appears to be at Fountain Hills, AZ. It wasn't the World Championship, or any major victory. The photographer just happened to catch Climo in a bad light while McBeth is enjoying the victory. And, when was this Fountain Hills victory? Around 2012 maybe, putting Climo around 45 or so. Good for you Paul. You won against a player well out of his prime, and you're still going to revel in it now. I find doing so to be in bad taste.

I see it as some good natured ribbing, and that picture, regardless of the event, was a damn good slam.

 

[araytx]

It all boils down to who is the better putter. I'll take McBeth's putting over Climo's anytime.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

I don't understand what you're basing that on, especially if you say other places you haven't seen him much. We've all seen Paul much more often because there's simply more coverage now.

Here's why I disagree.
Climo's popularizing the pitch putt is the same type of game-changing (not the cliche' - the literal) skill that has happened throughout sports -- Kareem's sky hook or Dirk's one-leg kickout step back shot, June Jones with Warren Moon in Houston popularizing the "the back shoulder fade" pass, Billy Beane with the Moneyball sabermetrics in baseball -- there are tons of them -- changed those sports forever. Climo was far from the first, but he certainly made the pitch putt popular -- because he was so good at it and, well SOOOOO good at it. Today big-time pro players now take a lot from what he did, but he was one of the first to utilize it and perfect it extensively.. And he was dead-eye. Made them from everywhere. As one-person already pointed out, and made them on what we'd today call crappy single-chains, crappy Mach III's, etc., ...the whole gamet. I've talked to Stokely about the battles with Climo, and others who were there. He was dead-eye. That's why he won. The "McBeth v Climo" argument comes down to a lot of today's folks "thinking" that the players were so "weak throwers" that Climo could just "chuck it 350 accurately" and beat everybody. Not really the reason. I wasn't there at the round where Kenny shot the 1117-rated round in '09 (at age 40 no less), but I've spoken with some who were. Dude pars the first hole. Then makes twenty-three birdies in a row (24-hole course). And it wasn't this park every hole kinda thing. They said he was draining putts from everywhere. 30', 40', 50', 60' -- without missing. Twenty-three is a lot of birdies in a row for anyone on ANY legit course. You don't do that unless you're dead-eye. It's just a shame there was no Jomez and the like then.

Btw.. I've looked around, and I haven't really found any info on how far Climo could throw. I've seen some posts with him throwing 350, but nothing further. Compared to Stokley back in the same period was apparently bombing 400+ in events all day long. btw..that facebook page is gone. lol.. Would Paul even chimed in if he was still with Innova?

Is this some type of proof that Climo only threw 350'? Because that's not true at all.
I watched him play many times against the competition including Stokely. Most of what is said about his game and competitors now days come from people who weren't even there.

I've seen 450' myself. I don't think "the videos I can find" are a good source of "definitive max distance"

 

[DiscFifty]

Is this some type of proof that Climo only threw 350'? Because that's not true at all. I watched him play many times against the competition including Stokely. Most of what is said about his game and competitors now days come from people who weren't even there.

Nope, I was just digging around on big arms back in the day and there seems to be nothing showing (or talking about) Ken being a big arm player, but there is plenty of video with him having great control in the 300-350ft range, one hell of an upshot (probably in the same range), and great putting. Stokely on the other hand is much easier to find mentions of him being a big arm back in the day. (And he still can bomb a 400ft forehand.)

Here's a discussion of Ken apparently saying 375ft can win a worlds championship back in 2000.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92316


My overall point is ....maybe...he didn't need to be the furthest thrower back in the day to win. Now days it seems if you don't have elite distance, sure you can cash, but if you want to win, you're basically hoping those bombers don't get those birdies (or better) on those longer holes.

 

[DiscFifty]

I've seen 450' myself. I don't think "the videos I can find" are a good source of "definitive max distance"

Well..you already know how I feel about your distance estimations. j/k And btw..I'm not saying Climo couldn't throw past 350, I have no idea what his max distance was, I'm just saying I've never seen it on video (yes I know no Jomez) and he probably didn't need to throw that far to win those championships. When did you see him throw 450? What course/hole was that? That's a huge bomb for a backhand player back in the day.

 

[Jay Dub]

Climo threw this with a Roc and/or a Cobra. 560' pin B landed basket high. Pins A & C weren't in back then.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Jay Dub]

We old folks have PDGA numbers that are considered to be *B.C numbers.

Spoiler

*Before Climo

 

[araytx]

Well..you already know how I feel about your distance estimations. j/k And btw..I'm not saying Climo couldn't throw past 350, I have no idea what his max distance was, I'm just saying I've never seen it on video (yes I know no Jomez) and he probably didn't need to throw that far to win those championships. When did you see him throw 450? What course/hole was that? That's a huge bomb for a backhand player back in the day.

OK, gimme some time -- You're asking a 59-yr-old to "remember" where I was and when

 

[Jimb]

At one point in my career I could hit 350' with "some" regularity. I didn't start until I was 40. And although athletic enough, was never in great shape during my dg career. Based only upon that, even with me throwing Terns, I would have guessed that KC would have been able to throw much farther than 350' with whatever driver he had at the time.

I have heard arguments about this topic and I think that I agree with the person who said something like this: "KC is still the GOAT, but PM is the best player ever."

 

[Jay Dub]

Jump ahead 20 years from now and for the sake of the discussion McBeth never won another Worlds title. Everyone would then agree Climo was the best.
Same with present day, Mcbeth only has 5 World titles so it's too early to say if he will end up winning more than Climo has. If he keeps this pace up there's a good chance he will but he has not done it yet.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So, does it make sense that Nicklaus is the Greatest OAT and Tiger is the Best OAT based on Majors?