Am Payouts stifle pro growth?

[biscoe]

I don't understand how this is a bad thing. The am divisions are not funding the pro purse so what is the problem here?

Local communities have finite resources both in terms of financial support and volunteer hours. Running a big event to draw the top pros puts large demands on each often at the expense of something else which could arguably more effectively grow the game in the local community. Each place hosting a DGPT event for instance could purchase not one but 2 sets of baskets through the DGPT sanctioning fee ($2k) and the added cash requirement ($10k) alone. In addition the local clubs running big events are often not left with a warm fuzzy feeling by having hosted said big events.

 

[1978]

I honestly couldn't disagree more. The best way to get better is by having practice discs? Come on. Give Paul McBeth an allotment of 30 discs for the whole season and he's still the best player in the world. I'm willing to bet there is zero correlation between number of discs owned and skill level once you get past 10 or so discs.

You compared Paul McBeth to a beginning player and how they get better? knowing what your disc does is the most important thing. Throwing 1 disc then walking 300 ft, repeat, to see how that mold flys is ridiculous. Also you did the lazy thing of picking one piece and saying you couldnt disagree more...which means that you think having multiples of discs can in no way shape or form, ever make you better. Just remember to let people play through when you are noob annying your Ape or Groove that you bought because the flight numbers looked right.

"I'm willing to bet there is zero correlation between number of discs owned and skill level once you get past 10 or so discs."

# of discs doesnt correlate to practice. # of practice discs correlates to practice. If you have never gone to a field or a specific shaped hole and thrown 5-6 of the same disc to practice lines, muscle memory, and shot shaping, you are leaving a whole bunch of shots on the table when you play.

Anyone who thinks Paul doesnt take a stack of 10 of the same disc or 15 putters and just practices throwing the same shot over and over is loony.

Do you also disagree that payout is a great way for smaller companies to trial their discs?

 

[1978]

I don't understand how this is a bad thing. The am divisions are not funding the pro purse so what is the problem here?

What world do you live in? Of course many TD's take from the Am buy in to seed the added cash for pros. They use player pack "value" to satisfy the am payout even though their costs are 50-70% less (or free if sponsorship). They use that money to make a profit or grow added cash for the pros.

Its the old "hey this Brewery sticker I got for free is valued at $3" in the players pack.

 

[1978]

Strongly disagree.

The best way to get better is to practice A LOT. You can practice with what's in your bag, every day. Of course having a few extras of your most used discs helps - but I don't think not being able to afford to buy a few extra discs is going to keep someone from getting better if that's what they really want. We get too tied up in the equipment side of this game, when the best players play well because they play and practice so often.

I don't have 10 of every disc that I throw, not even putters. Having that many won't help me get better, most of them just sit in storage. Focusing on your most used discs, and putting, is how you'll improve. I think comets and wasps are the only things that I have 10+ of, and that's mainly because I've been throwing them on and off for over a decade.

Getting hung up on 10 is short sighted. You can't fathom a scenario where having 3 of the same disc to throw or more than one putter could ever make you better? A scenario where, you have trouble with a 300ft turnover line and you set 5 similar discs down at the tee and throw all 5 just to cement that feel and throw in your brain and muscle memory?

 

[1978]

I don't understand how this is a bad thing. The am divisions are not funding the pro purse so what is the problem here?

If you dont understand the dynamics of most disc golf communities, then you cant understand how valuable the local cash pool is to the courses and local clubs.
Pros getting cash with minimal outside sponsorship $(current situation)
Disc golf money leaving to be spent on non disc golf related things, hurts the sport.

Pros getting cash with outside sponsorship money (maybe future)
Non-disc golf money entering the disc golf community to be spent on disc golf related things helps the sport.

 

[discgolfer25]

You compared Paul McBeth to a beginning player and how they get better? knowing what your disc does is the most important thing. Throwing 1 disc then walking 300 ft, repeat, to see how that mold flys is ridiculous. Also you did the lazy thing of picking one piece and saying you couldnt disagree more...which means that you think having multiples of discs can in no way shape or form, ever make you better. Just remember to let people play through when you are noob annying your Ape or Groove that you bought because the flight numbers looked right.

"I'm willing to bet there is zero correlation between number of discs owned and skill level once you get past 10 or so discs."

# of discs doesnt correlate to practice. # of practice discs correlates to practice. If you have never gone to a field or a specific shaped hole and thrown 5-6 of the same disc to practice lines, muscle memory, and shot shaping, you are leaving a whole bunch of shots on the table when you play.

Anyone who thinks Paul doesnt take a stack of 10 of the same disc or 15 putters and just practices throwing the same shot over and over is loony.

Do you also disagree that payout is a great way for smaller companies to trial their discs?

Okay fine. Here's a better example for you. I went from 883 to 967 in 15 months throwing a bag of 6 discs with one back up of each. So I used 12 discs total to practice. I don't need to know how a specific mold flies bc there is so much variance in plastic injection molding that two of the same mold could fly completely different, but I sure know how those 12 discs in my bag fly. Sometimes I would throw most all of them on the same hole so I could practice different shot shapes with each disc. I bet I knew my bag better than most people out there bc I threw those specific discs so often, the same discs I was using in tournaments. Sure Paul McBeth throws the same discs several times but by no means is that what makes him successful. Plus when he's on tour, he doesn't have room to carry 100s of discs so he probably throws mainly what is in his bag.

As far as payout being a great way to trial discs for smaller companies, I'm on the same page there. Although I think player packs could do the same thing.

 

[VictorB]

Sometimes I would throw most all of them on the same hole so I could practice different shot shapes with each disc. I bet I knew my bag better than most people out there bc I threw those specific discs so often, the same discs I was using in tournaments.

This is exactly why you don't have to have a stack of the exact same disc to practice with.

For putters, having a stack just makes it more convenient, changes nothing else really

 

[westflagator]

I agree 100 percent. I rather win a trophy so i can remember that day instead of disc or merchandise. I came in second and third and receive disc i would never play with but the 3rd place trophy and first place trophy I have mounted on top of the tv. Plus my wife now calls me her Champion. I'm a Big fan of trophy.

 

[westflagator]

What world do you live in? Of course many TD's take from the Am buy in to seed the added cash for pros. They use player pack "value" to satisfy the am payout even though their costs are 50-70% less (or free if sponsorship). They use that money to make a profit or grow added cash for the pros.

Its the old "hey this Brewery sticker I got for free is valued at $3" in the players pack.

Or chap stick,koozey,lanyards, and my favorite discraft stickers that get thrown away.

 

[scarpfish]

I agree 100 percent. I rather win a trophy so i can remember that day instead of disc or merchandise. I came in second and third and receive disc i would never play with but the 3rd place trophy and first place trophy I have mounted on top of the tv. Plus my wife now calls me her Champion. I'm a Big fan of trophy.

That's my problem with trophies. They just take up space, collect dust, and remind me of a feat, that in the grand scheme of my life isn't that significant. Unless it was a prestigious event, I'd just as soon do without them. A disc I don't want I can always sell.

 

[DavidSauls]

Print the results off the PDGA page, and frame them.

 

[Steve West]

Or chap stick,koozey,lanyards, and my favorite discraft stickers that get thrown away.

Stickers the worst. Too many end up on the baskets, trash cans, and benches. We might as well hand out free spray paint.

 

[mojorooks]

So Im fairly new. Playing in a tournament sounds like a lot of fun even though I know for a fact that I would have no chance of winning.

I compare the tournament to a 5k race. Also that I know I have no chance of winning. Every run comes with a T-shirt. I always liked getting the shirt because "i earned it". But eventually a runner gets more shirts than they know what to do with. But with that, the shirt just becomes an expected part of the entry fee.

A 5k race will cost 20 to 30 dollars including the shirt. The shirt costs 5/10 dollars and the remaining 15/20 goes toward 'the race'. But discs are more expensive. At $15/20 per they get add up. Especially if its a disc you won't use.

There were some races that would give the option of taking a more expensive item. How would that work in DG tourney? During admission, could you choose which item you like. Instead of $50, charge 25 for entry, then an option for a $10 shirt, $20 disc or $25 player pack? I'm thowing ignorant numbers out because I am ignorant. Just trying to think outside the box although this all is probably stuff you have experienced.

I guess that is off what the OP is asking but ultimately like others have stated - what does it matter what they do with the portion going to 'the tourney'. Either you find it of value or you don't. I really hope that the TD pockets some of it because it encourages them to host more events. If he puts it toward the 'pros' and I still find the entry fee worth it, then there is no issue.

Even in the McDonalds comparison, they will charge at-or-near cost for the cheap menu items just to steal you away from BK, and in the hopes that you will sometimes buy the higher dollar items. Its their business model and its how they feel they need to make money. We could put our foot down and demand they charge equally across the board but that would only prove that we have no clue what we are talking about.

 

[DavidSauls]

So Im fairly new. Playing in a tournament sounds like a lot of fun even though I know for a fact that I would have no chance of winning.

I compare the tournament to a 5k race. Also that I know I have no chance of winning. Every run comes with a T-shirt. I always liked getting the shirt because "i earned it". But eventually a runner gets more shirts than they know what to do with. But with that, the shirt just becomes an expected part of the entry fee.

A 5k race will cost 20 to 30 dollars including the shirt. The shirt costs 5/10 dollars and the remaining 15/20 goes toward 'the race'. But discs are more expensive. At $15/20 per they get add up. Especially if its a disc you won't use.

There were some races that would give the option of taking a more expensive item. How would that work in DG tourney? During admission, could you choose which item you like. Instead of $50, charge 25 for entry, then an option for a $10 shirt, $20 disc or $25 player pack? I'm thowing ignorant numbers out because I am ignorant. Just trying to think outside the box although this all is probably stuff you have experienced.

I guess that is off what the OP is asking but ultimately like others have stated - what does it matter what they do with the portion going to 'the tourney'. Either you find it of value or you don't. I really hope that the TD pockets some of it because it encourages them to host more events. If he puts it toward the 'pros' and I still find the entry fee worth it, then there is no issue.

Even in the McDonalds comparison, they will charge at-or-near cost for the cheap menu items just to steal you away from BK, and in the hopes that you will sometimes buy the higher dollar items. Its their business model and its how they feel they need to make money. We could put our foot down and demand they charge equally across the board but that would only prove that we have no clue what we are talking about.

In disc golf, none of the entry goes to "the race", so to speak. By rule, it must all go to either the players pack, or prizes for the top 50% of each division.

Except that the value of the players pack and/or prizes are at retail. If the TD gets the items at a lower price, the "profit" goes to the event.

Some events, for the players pack, give a specific item---like your race tee-shirt---and some give a voucher with which you can choose what item(s) you want as a player pack.

 

[thrembo]

Send me your unwanted stickers! I promise I won't put them on a course or on anything that's not mine!

 

[thrembo]

thrembos favorite things to receive in a players pack:

Shirt. And not a collard one and preferably one with the event on it.

Disc. Preferably one with the event on it or one that I throw.

Mini.

Sticker. Preferably Discraft.

Trophies are ok, but I very seldom get one because I'm not that good so I like to get a little something for throwing down my hard earned cash. I am not there to pay the pro's salaries.

 

[Improbably]

In disc golf, none of the entry goes to "the race", so to speak. By rule, it must all go to either the players pack, or prizes for the top 50% of each division.

Except that the value of the players pack and/or prizes are at retail. If the TD gets the items at a lower price, the "profit" goes to the event.

Some events, for the players pack, give a specific item---like your race tee-shirt---and some give a voucher with which you can choose what item(s) you want as a player pack.

Well...

Such rules are part of PDGA sanctioning. When an event is PDGA sanctioned the FIRST place money goes is to the PDGA. Some people may think of it as money going to "the race" and some people may think of it as a waste. Regardless the PDGA gets their money first or it's not a PDGA sanctioned event.

Unsanctioned events have far more latitude in how they structure their costs and payouts. Some adhere closely to the PDGA structure, some are vastly different. It's never a bad idea to find out how an unsanctioned event may differ from PDGA standards.

DavidSauls, I'm sure you are aware of these details, no intention to disparage your knowledge. My post is for the sake of expanding upon the information mojorooks self-identified as lacking.

 

[Casey 1988]

only way eliminating the Amateur merchandise would work is if you lowered the cost to get in to tournament by however much the Amateur merchandise would have cost the person running the tournament. At the least have the option to drop the Disc for a Mini marker, enough new tournament players have only one disc and no mini to play with in my area like thy play Rec division or Novice and they end up with people who have only one maybe two discs and they end up needing a mini. Also the new Tournament players need to have the rules down better mainly basics before entering a tournament so they are not doing things that would seem obvious to most to not do like stepping over the tee box in the initial drive or Re-Putting from the spot they missed a put without marking on the card a extra penalty stroke if playing with an all new to tournaments player card or in the case of an experienced card having new player or experienced player to waste time finding the rule in the PDGA Rulebook.

 

[DavidSauls]

@ Improbably

You're right, of course.

I was being very general because I was answering a new player, and reluctant to dive into too many details.

It's still a big distinction between disc golf and almost every other sport---that the players, as a group, should get back as much as they pay in, one way or the other. Approximately as much, anyway.

 

[DiscFifty]

Local communities have finite resources both in terms of financial support and volunteer hours. Running a big event to draw the top pros puts large demands on each often at the expense of something else which could arguably more effectively grow the game in the local community. Each place hosting a DGPT event for instance could purchase not one but 2 sets of baskets through the DGPT sanctioning fee ($2k) and the added cash requirement ($10k) alone. In addition the local clubs running big events are often not left with a warm fuzzy feeling by having hosted said big events.

hmm... if you're logic is sound then why doesn't the TD just not have pro divisions for said big events?