I have always wondered if designers take wind into account when designing a course, or do they design assuming no wind and let the chips fall where they may?
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DGPT: 2022 Dynamic Discs Open Apr 28-May 1
- Thread starter brutalbrutus
- Start date
I have always wondered if designers take wind into account when designing a course, or do they design assuming no wind and let the chips fall where they may?
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Whatchu got against Calvin's goldfish?!
*semi-menacingly shakes his fist*
I know, right?
That goldfish is important to Vinny. It has to demonstrate emotion when he can't... which is often.
Flick Maniac
* Ace Member *
I was gonna say dog, but then again, they will likely do that at some point (DGPT social media already done it) and besides everyone loves dogs. I could watch a dog. But somebodys wife, get outta here
Maybe the Vegas courses I can at least watch because they have been there for a while and at least I know what Im looking at. Now especially on par 4/5 its a disc flying in a park perfectly well and only the announcers to tell me "oh theres OB there". And even when not, I cant tell of its a good set up for the next shot or not.
Whereas WR Jackson for example, couldnt remember it either but you pretty much know a good shot when you see one.
I have no desire to "learn" this course for my viewing pleasure. I looks all the same. Very few defining features or signature holes.
Maybe the Vegas courses I can at least watch because they have been there for a while and at least I know what Im looking at. Now especially on par 4/5 its a disc flying in a park perfectly well and only the announcers to tell me "oh theres OB there". And even when not, I cant tell of its a good set up for the next shot or not.
Whereas WR Jackson for example, couldnt remember it either but you pretty much know a good shot when you see one.
I have no desire to "learn" this course for my viewing pleasure. I looks all the same. Very few defining features or signature holes.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Yes. I did a 9-hole design on flat, mostly open property where at least one hole teed in one of the 8 common directions of the compass. Note that teeing east or west, the sun may also impact challenge (in your eyes) when it's early or late in the day.
Orioles_Lefty
Eagle Member
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Required driop zones are often overly punitive and add a design element to a hole that overweights the drop zone throw as part of the hole design in relation to how the hole is designed for the throw that sends the player to the DZ.
Some OBs should be hazard. Some OBs should be played from last in bounds spot. I think hole 1 should be played as hazard if no contact with island and regular OB if contact is made with island surface, defined as that red rubbery surface.
Drop zones should allow players to proceed up the fairway on a hole where the disc was never in bounds such as a long water carry. But mandatory drop zones that make players subtract advancement gained on previous throw are often overly puinitive, gimmicky, and (sometimes) just bad design.
As often as possible in a round, the disc should be played from it's lie or legally in-bounds as close as possible to its OB location. That seems to be my playing philosophy. One exception is the classic player's *choice* to throw over OB hoping for disc to return in-bounds.
Some OBs should be hazard. Some OBs should be played from last in bounds spot. I think hole 1 should be played as hazard if no contact with island and regular OB if contact is made with island surface, defined as that red rubbery surface.
Drop zones should allow players to proceed up the fairway on a hole where the disc was never in bounds such as a long water carry. But mandatory drop zones that make players subtract advancement gained on previous throw are often overly puinitive, gimmicky, and (sometimes) just bad design.
As often as possible in a round, the disc should be played from it's lie or legally in-bounds as close as possible to its OB location. That seems to be my playing philosophy. One exception is the classic player's *choice* to throw over OB hoping for disc to return in-bounds.
Our story so far...
FPO
MPO
These are ......not the kind of readings you would expect to get from a finely tuned skill-testing instrument. Yea, excitement!
Love to see math applied but would love some clarity.
Can you post the first 2 rounds at Jackson for comparison and elaborate on what we are looking at here? Does this imply OB randomizes outcomes? Is there some statistical significance to that variable specifically?
Do you have similar data across all tournaments and if so where does this fall relative to those by measure?
Do you have a background in statistics?
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Actuarily, he does.
smoothplayer
Banned
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This is probably the most boring course I have ever watched. You are exactly right. I can't tell a good shot from a avg one. Can't tell where the OB is. Don't really know where the fairway is either.
Then you have the cedar trees which are impossible to play from so that is a pitch out.
Just hole 1 for example we had the best players in the world trying to lay up a 120 foot shot off the tee, then lay up a putt from the drop zone. Can you make it any more dull?
smoothplayer
Banned
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Calvins fish has a good story to tell. I don't mind the features but they do get a bit long sometimes so I skip through them also.
As the players are getting better the courses are getting tougher and tougher and more boring as well. The cedar trees probably all need to be trimmed . Watching a a pro try and FH putt a 12 footer is really bizarre. I'd probably just get rid of the ropes. We as viewers can't tell where it is anyways. Then it handcuffs the players from going big. Seen way too many layups on the raised baskets too like on hole 1.
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Kona and Colten have the 'rona or something? DNF's before they started today.
EricMoul
Bogey Member
Yep, them and Raven Klein. DGPT doing testing before tee off for any people in close contact per Ultiworld. Suspending play or cancellation not off the table apparently
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I think they are out on that event's thread. As are others, for other events. Have fun searching. Usually near the end of the thread.
It would probably be more accurate to say OB multiplies the consequences of randomness. However, it also multiplies the impact of poor play. Usually, the net result is a better separation of players by skill. It looks like this much wind and this much OB might have tipped the balance toward muddling.
Proving or measuring randomness is not at all easy. I am working on something. In the meantime, looking at the graphs gives you a pretty good sense of whether a course produced jerky results or smooth.
The FPO chart in particular looks bad (subjectively) because it smooshes together a lot of skill levels into similar scores.
As Chuck pun-ted out, I was an actuary.
robdeforge
Double Eagle Member
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colten posted yesterday about the difficulty of playing (one of the hardest courses on tour with 25-30mph winds) with a sinus infection, so maybe that. not sure about kona though
True. The winds in our area are traditionally from West to East, but a decent percentage of the time they are from East to West. It is surprising how often I see players attempt to play a hole the same way with the same discs no matter which way the wind is blowing.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Waitt ill they get to The Preserve... :gross:
To bad, wanted to see if Kona could make the cut-line
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
If you want to do some leg work and correlate the data, go thru the tourney threads and search each for posts made by Steve West. That should help you find his stats for each event fairly quickly.
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Now Matty O on the DNF before starting list today.
smoothplayer
Banned
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The Preserve is a better course then this one. It's probably the combination of difficult layout, high wind and OB everywhere making these guys look silly. Like hole 1, guys are putting off the tee, then laying up from the drop zone just to try and stay in bounds. Even their layups were going OB on 1 like Ricky.
Pretty big contrast between this and and WR Jackson which was really good.
