Hilariously Bad Backhand Form, Please Advise

[Brychanus]

Bucket weight is probably fine. I kind of want you to get the combo of resistance and workout of posterior chain for a while.

Bucket posture looks best so far in that most recent video, esp. in side view! Keep at it. Keep trying to get balanced/stacked like I mentioned before each way before shifting to the other side, then you can do it quicker and quicker. I'm probably going to ask you to toss the bucket in a week, but not yet.

For RtB take a day or two off if you get sore. People underestimate how many small muscles it recruits too. If you do it too much you'll start to fatigue and compensate (ask me how I know lol).

Royal Coil is where I expect a lot of adults to be. Don't feel bad - I did similar things for waltz for years and still couldn't quite get it comfortably at first. Nudge it 1-2'' at a time in terms of the depth of your "sit" on the front leg, how far you extend the rear leg, and how far into the side bend you get. A day at a time. Even now it usually takes me a few reps to get into my full range of motion and I've been doing it for months. That mobility really matters for advanced backhand.

Will summarize my routine in a bit - it might help you since it looks like you have a lot of similar issues I had to attack.

 

[Naenae]

Ninja--

I hope this is fun for you. Fun is the goal.

Renae

 

[Brychanus]

Ninja--

I hope this is fun for you. Fun is the goal.

Renae

Thanks Renae, & I agree.

I find this fun now, but it wasn't always. There were some dark days.

If it's not fun, time to go outside and just play or do something else

 

[ninjabq]

Ninja--

I hope this is fun for you. Fun is the goal.

Renae

Haha thanks for the look. What has not been fun has been going at this for almost 2 years and still losing to my friends who play once a month and have never once stepped onto a field or took a recording of themselves.

Obviously comparison is the thief of joy, but hard not to compare with your cardmates.

So we continue to chug along...

(this would probably be more adequately solved by fixing my putt than throwing farther. soon™)

What will be fun is explaining to my neighbor why I've been waltzing with a bucket at 7 AM.

 

[Brychanus]

On the wisdom of fun: do it to music, find a rhythm, treat it like any other workout you enjoy. Plan breaks just like any workout. Listen to your body and mind. Remember that change is a long term concept in the body and the mind in disc golf.

Also, while the quest for "good" form is compelling, I can assure you it never ends. You can also spend too much time in the weeds and not enough time living and playing. I'm unusually obsessed with mechanics and efficiency, and I have personal reasons for that. The patience and fun improved over time for me, but it wasn't always the case. You don't need to be that way if you don't want to! Cracking open beers for cheers with friends at Hole 1 at 7:30am once in a while is still the best part of it for me.

Wisdom in golf: Perfect can be the enemy of the good. Even into the Advanced category, consistently dropping a drive 300' down a wooded or open fairway avoiding OB with good placement is still a major differentiating skill. If my upshots and putts are on that day, I will comfortably beat the card chewing up holes 300' at a time. If those skills are off, the wily veteran will beat me. My own power is not top tier, but I also have enough now that I rarely need to use a full drive, especially around my age peers. It's nice to have it on open holes, but placement and lines still make the difference. If you want to be a Pro, yes, you are going to need significant repeatable distance, but it's ok to have different goals, too.

You asked about workouts and after realizing I'd put a lot of research and thought into it and seen the effects on my own health and DG, I figured I'd put it all in one place.

 

[ninjabq]

Also, while the quest for "good" form is compelling, I can assure you it never ends. You can also spend too much time in the weeds and not enough time living and playing. I'm unusually obsessed with mechanics and efficiency, and I have personal reasons for that. The patience and fun improved over time for me, but it wasn't always the case.

Maybe we're of the same mind here, not sure. For me it's less about mechanics/efficiency in the specific sense, and more about "doing it the right way" in the general sense. In all things I do I can be obsessive about "doing it the right way" - you can ask my partner how obsessive I am about these kinds of details in the kitchen, for example. (Although I think it was easier for me to get good at cooking than disc golf - but I started younger and with a better baseline.)

So in that sense, doing what I can to throw the right way is fun for me. Even if I got a good result on the course, if I know my form was bad, I'd never be satisfied. So for me it's keep playing disc golf and keep working to do it the right way, or I'd probably never really have fun because that doesn't tick the right boxes for me.

That being said I still enjoy a casual round with the boys!

Wisdom in golf: Perfect can be the enemy of the good. Even into the Advanced category, consistently dropping a drive 300' down a wooded or open fairway avoiding OB with good placement is still a major differentiating skill. If my upshots and putts are on that day, I will comfortably beat the card chewing up holes 300' at a time. If those skills are off, the wily veteran will beat me. My own power is not top tier, but I also have enough now that I rarely need to use a full drive, especially around my age peers. It's nice to have it on open holes, but placement and lines still make the difference. If you want to be a Pro, yes, you are going to need significant repeatable distance, but it's ok to have different goals, too.

To combine this with the above, there is definitely a certain rigidity that I need to avoid - especially when applying that to others, and still to a degree when applying it to myself. For now though I know that within my current form the ceiling is not even near the point where "dropping a drive 300' down a wooded fairway" is even part of the discussion so I'll be happy when that is my main issue.

You asked about workouts and after realizing I'd put a lot of research and thought into it and seen the effects on my own health and DG, I figured I'd put it all in one place.

Thanks! I'll definitely use this as a template and get my butt back in the gym. It all looks very accessible so I appreciate that.

Here's today's batch of drills:

Pratt - felt like I was having a harder time than average staying balanced on the left side, maybe due to fatigue. Fortunately I won't be able to drill much tomorrow because of St. Patrick's Day, uh, festivities.


On the other hand I felt good about my bull riding. One thing I'm not sure about is to what degree my knee should be bent when I'm stacked on one side?

I will say that since the inception of me reading everything here, ride the bull is the one that I have always had the hardest time connecting to the disc golf throw. But maybe that's because I've never done it right? Regardless, I will blindly follow you until it makes sense.

I can definitely say now that I couldn't connect ride the bull to the throw because I was doing it wrong. It's becoming increasingly clear how one begets the other. I was playing around with this throughout the day in the house, and I decided to just try it out, first emulating my original throw and then trying to ride the bull into a throw.



Possible that I'm just biased now because of the latest work, and because I know riding the bull is "supposed" to be right. But the one on the right definitely felt more powerful and simultaneously less effortful, although it definitely looks goofy. To be fair, I forced my arm to stay in the power pocket the whole throw for this experiment just to reduce variables.

Upon visual inspection, it sure looks like my arm came around much faster:

I would say this cements that I shouldn't play this weekend though, because I have no idea where the disc would go throwing that way

 

[ninjabq]

One more note. I was going through some old film and found this video from a little bit before I stopped practicing last year, May 2023 (which interestingly I never posted here). My swing then looked much more similar to the "new" swing from today, than to my "current" vertical bad swing. Wonder what happened in between then and now...



(Also the "new" swing looks slightly less faster than the "current" swing when the videos are actually timed up correctly lol)

 

[Brychanus]

Keep in mind that the move recruits a weird combo of core/leg strength, mobility, and dynamic strength and stretchy fascia, each requiring its own recovery cycle. At one point a forum member taught me that you might need as much as 3 days between power drive practices to fully recover, esp early on. I found that to be true of the most dynamic drills like ride the bull, too if you go after it as hard as you are. So I would plan rest time accordingly.

Form-wise, including your towel drill: Next load into the reach back/backswing with side bend. This is a fundamental difference in posture from what you're used to so it will feel completely different thru your core. Keep the Pratt balance as you do it. I would rather see you exaggerate it than do too little at first. Start at half speed and slowly ramp it up.

 

[ninjabq]

You asked about workouts and after realizing I'd put a lot of research and thought into it and seen the effects on my own health and DG, I figured I'd put it all in one place.

This morning I hit the gym and did Nick Krush's warm-up routine -> your phase 1 -> Pratt/Ride the Bull with sandbag -> royal coil, and now my legs are dead. Thanks!

Definitely a different conditioning requirement from Olympic lifting. I was gonna grab some more video this evening but now I think I just need to take a break again!

 

[ninjabq]

Still a little sore in the hamstrings this morning - must be more out of shape than I realize. At any rate, went out and tried throwing a bit with heavy emphasis on bullriding and trying to side bend. Results not great so far, to be expected.

My throw seems a lot different with a disc in hand than in the shadow swing prior?

 

[Brychanus]

Still a little sore in the hamstrings this morning - must be more out of shape than I realize. At any rate, went out and tried throwing a bit with heavy emphasis on bullriding and trying to side bend. Results not great so far, to be expected.

My throw seems a lot different with a disc in hand than in the shadow swing prior?

Yeah, keep a long run perspective in mind IMHO. If you were training to be a sprinter or powerlifter you'd need to space out the moves with adequate rest. If any part of the "posterior chain" is too tired you'll tend to get more rigid and slouch into the classic office worker posture:

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physioworks.clinic

Anterior pelvic tilt, spine extension, loading too much on the quads etc. Bad for motion and bad for space to move when throwing.

I might suggest you keep doing bucket RtB focused on your form but space it out now. Treat it more like an exercise you do 1-2 times per week. I would now shift focus to Double Dragon so that you can smooth out what you're doing and get relaxed, "long" and balanced moving in each direction. In particular need to get you comfortable coiling back into the rear side and letting gravity do some of the work shifting out of the backswing. That will help teach you how to get more acceleration before you add any muscular effort.

 

[ninjabq]

Yeah, keep a long run perspective in mind IMHO. If you were training to be a sprinter or powerlifter you'd need to space out the moves with adequate rest. If any part of the "posterior chain" is too tired you'll tend to get more rigid and slouch into the classic office worker posture:

Loading…

physioworks.clinic

Anterior pelvic tilt, spine extension, loading too much on the quads etc. Bad for motion and bad for space to move when throwing.

I might suggest you keep doing bucket RtB focused on your form but space it out now. Treat it more like an exercise you do 1-2 times per week. I would now shift focus to Double Dragon so that you can smooth out what you're doing and get relaxed, "long" and balanced moving in each direction. In particular need to get you comfortable coiling back into the rear side and letting gravity do some of the work shifting out of the backswing. That will help teach you how to get more acceleration before you add any muscular effort.

Here's some drills from this morning. Will work on double dragon later.

Going directly from weighted to unweighted ride the bull sure makes me feel fast lol

 

[Brychanus]

Yes, keep in mind you will gradually get quicker and quicker as you build up the moves and under less load. Don't make the mistake I tend to make and get too heavy and plodding in the legs and feet. Treat the weighted training like a weighted baseball bat. The point isn't to get good at swinging 5 lb bats. It's about swinging 2 lb bats much faster. I gained a lot in resilience and theoretical peak power from conditioning and strength in my legs. But I need to move more like the waltz into the move now (you might run or hop or etc.).

You're working very hard.

IMHO probably time to give those barking hammies a break my dude. Don't regress from overwork!

 

[ninjabq]

Yes, keep in mind you will gradually get quicker and quicker as you build up the moves and under less load. Don't make the mistake I tend to make and get too heavy and plodding in the legs and feet. Treat the weighted training like a weighted baseball bat. The point isn't to get good at swinging 5 lb bats. It's about swinging 2 lb bats much faster. I gained a lot in resilience and theoretical peak power from conditioning and strength in my legs. But I need to move more like the waltz into the move now (you might run or hop or etc.).

You're working very hard.

IMHO probably time to give those barking hammies a break my dude. Don't regress from overwork!

Fair enough haha. I didn't feel any soreness today so seemed like a good time for some bucket drills. That could also mean I wasn't engaging my legs very well when throwing yesterday...

I'll probably just stick with working on double dragon tonight and then if I'm feeling fine I'll throw tomorrow. I plan on playing on Saturday and want to at least make sure the lateral direction of my throw isn't RNG

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Ride the stick like witch between your legs/thighs, not out in front of you. Hold with rear hand around navel. Let front arm hang freely.

2. You are pushing off your heels and extending the knees instead of pushing off the instep/plantar flexion and the knee going into flexion.

 

[Kennets]

I'm not sure if i already gave out this advice in here, but I'll do it again.

Brychanus and SW is doing great giving you advices and you're already working with alternative ways to "feel the throw"..

You need to try out SW's (seabass22) hammer drills. You and I share a lot of issues, one of them is having next to no rhythm or grace in our throw lol (no harm meant man).

Swinging a heavy object (sledge hammer, bag of sand, golf club, whatever) and incorporating it with an x step is really valuable on so many levels. Posture is definitely one of them along with the swing "thought". To me it looks like you think of the throw too much as a spin and throw, instead of caring more lateral momentum into the throw. You get next to nothing out of the hinges in your arm, hugging yourself/rounding.


Get a light 'ish hammer and throw it in a pendulum-like throw.. you won't regret it


Keep the good work up and keep on grinding. I wish I had your dedication and work ethic!

 

[Naenae]

Ninja is certainly dedicated. I think if just as much effort was dedicated to refining the approach game and putting, shorter drives wouldn't really be a problem. And, I'd guess the drives would naturally increase a bit over time. Eventually most people fall into a rhythm of some sort.

 

[Brychanus]

Long game

 

[Brychanus]

Long game

Have a friend who was just complaining to me about having worked on his putting all winter. Instead of getting better at putting, he added 15% to his drive distance lol.

On the other hand, he has most of the common issues in his driving mechanics that I know will limit his distance ceiling (that I never mention unless asked). I can't not notice many of these things anymore, but it's ok if he doesn't care. I just want people I play with to have fun.

I am dramatically better at driving than putting now, but not always "pinpoint" accurate. Upshots are ok, so I by far give up the most strokes around the circle. Even if I never gain another foot of distance, making better placed shots and putts is what will lift my overall game. In the meantime I forgive myself for the things I barely practice. I just like driving and driving mechanics more than anything else, so that's what I work on the most. But gradually I'm becoming more interested in being a better overall golfer.

Important to have your own goals. They may change over time. That's ok.

 

[ninjabq]

You need to try out SW's (seabass22) hammer drills. You and I share a lot of issues, one of them is having next to no rhythm or grace in our throw lol (no harm meant man).

Haha no offense taken. I was doing a lot of the hammer drills last year. I think Brychanus is right though that posture is a big issue here and working through that first will go a long way toward connecting the hammer drills to the throw. Appreciate the advice!

Ninja is certainly dedicated. I think if just as much effort was dedicated to refining the approach game and putting, shorter drives wouldn't really be a problem. And, I'd guess the drives would naturally increase a bit over time. Eventually most people fall into a rhythm of some sort.

Trust me, I'm painfully aware of my shortcomings especially in the putting game, and I know I can shave a lot more strokes off there than by adding 50 feet to my drive. In my last drill video one might notice the sudden appearance of a Black Hole Pro . I set that up last weekend and have been putting at it pretty consistently since then. I already feel better about my putt since I'm able to spend a lot of time figuring out what actually works and what doesn't.

I'm easily the most inconsistent putter of my group, and like I said before they've put in like 1/1000th of the time into this game as I have so that makes it even more stressful for me.

That being said, as I mentioned before, my particular misguided obsession is with doing things the "right" way, or at least not the "wrong" way, so it would be hard for me to keep driving with as poor mechanically as I am.

On the other hand, he has most of the common issues in his driving mechanics that I know will limit his distance ceiling (that I never mention unless asked). I can't not notice many of these things anymore, but it's ok if he doesn't care. I just want people I play with to have fun.

This is something I have trouble with, and it's a real problem. On one hand I am fully aware that as long as they're having fun it shouldn't matter and that nobody cares for unsolicited advice. On the other hand, my one buddy constantly blames the wind, footing, etc. for his sky-high 200 ft nose up drives that he throws with an overstable distance driver for some reason, and that really gets on my nerves. Another one refuses to believe that his shoulder issues could maybe be solved by working on his form which he's never tried to improve besides asking me what I do and then complaining that the drills don't make any sense.

Worst of all they've outscored me the last couple times we played together

But yeah, obviously that's more of a me problem. No need for this thread to become "hilariously bad mental fortitude, please advise".

Anyway I came down with a cold or something on Thursday so wasn't able to really practice anything other than putting since then. On the mend now so hopefully more to come soon.