Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[E_Rock25]

I think part of the problem is that we've diluted what "Pro" means. We've got too many of them and to compound the problem we have a bunch of amateurs that want to play like and get payed like pros.

It seems like the PDGA is trying to drive more people in that direction. It's like they want everyone to be a touring pro because that's how they generate the most money. Unfortunately, that's not the way to generate the most money for the sport in general.

More money going to courses and more money going to outreach and player development efforts is what the sport needs. The last thing it needs is more "professionals" that can't actually make a living off of it.

If DG isn't your livelihood, then you are or you should be in it for the love of the game. If that's what you're in it for, it doesn't make any sense for you to be taking money away from the sport. Payouts (pro and am) are bleeding the sport dry and are strangling the growth.

YES YES YES YES YES :thmbup: :thmbup: :thmbup: :thmbup:
Right on man......
I do think cash pots are fun as long as most of the money goes back into the sport.

 

[gcr_russell]

I must be one of the only ones here that just loves playing in events and is thankful to TDs regardless. Ill always pick a PDGA event over unsanctioned because of the ratings system, but realistically Ill play anything I have the chance to and, except for a small amount of minor griping, I just love DGs sense of community. The PDGA does help a lot in promoting that community by tying us all together in the organization.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think if the PDGA stoped telling TD's how to split there payouts you would see bigger AM payouts and it would draw more people to the sport.

There are a couple of areas in the country where most events are non-PDGA. If this were true, disc golf would be booming in those areas, but it's not.

The PDGA gives TDs a lot more flexibility than you may think. TDs tend to follow the common model (as I previously discussed), because it's what we think players want.

I've runs events with no age divisions or skill divisions---just one pro division, one am division. I've run match-play tournaments. I've run tournaments with no players pack but bigger Am payouts. I've played in trophy-only events. Others have tried other things. But TDs are sticking their necks out when they stray off the beaten path---not that the PDGA will sanction them, but that players will by not coming.

And, of course, TDs can always run non-sanctioned events if they think the PDGA is too structured. Again, they're sticking their necks out, and the players are the ones who'll punish them if they guess wrong.

 

[E_Rock25]

I understand that TD's are sticking there neck out I have 25 Ace Race player packs in my trunk right now and only 10 people pre-regestred for my event on Saturday. I just wish there was lower cost for PDGA membership for AM's and the money was spent more on local course development.

 

[Monocacy]

I must be one of the only ones here that just loves playing in events and is thankful to TDs regardless.

^^^^^This.

I also enjoy (and benefit from) playing with top players, whether pro or amateur. Watching the final 9 at Ptap (Jeremy Koling, Ricky Wysocki et al.), I picked up a tip that improved my forehand considerably.

 

[sidewinder22]

Bigger AM payouts...FTW! Disc golf is supposed to be a cheap sport to play, let's try to keep it that way. It should be trophy only for AM, just like most every sport you can name. If you want more payout, just go to your local disc golf shop or go online and buy what you really want. Or if you really want to gamble you can enter a side bet/pot with some of your cohorts, but leave it out of any tourney entry fees.

It makes me wonder where the AMs that want or expect payout are coming from....have these people ever played any other sport?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I totally agree with scarpfish. From my experience, the biggest difference between a great tournament and a crappy one is the amount of effort that the TD puts into the tournament. If a TD puts a ton of effort into a tourney (you'd be surprised at how much tourneys consume the lives of some TDs) and makes it amazing, they deserve to make a profit. Some people just can't afford to spend 100 hours making that awesome tournament and then coming out even, or at a loss. If you allow TDs to make a profit, TDs will work harder to ensure that people keep coming back to their tournaments, and more TDs will find it economically feasible to put lots of work into their tourneys. A $200 profit (which is much more than anyone makes on a tourney, I think) on a 70 person event is $3/person. I think that $3 is a very reasonable price to pay for that sort of effort. I've seen TDs put no work on tourneys and pocket most of the money, and almost always word gets around and the TD's future endeavors prove to be very unsuccessful.

I'd have to agree with this. You can tell when the person organizing the event has or hasn't put a great deal of effort into it. There's simply no substitute for it, and that effort should be compensated, or you're essentially creating a disincentive to to bust your ass to create a great event. I'm not saying the TD should make out like a bandit, but they deserve to be compensated for the time and effort it takes to put on a quality event.

Sure, some people do it for the for their own reasons, love of the game, etc, but you can't really expect that to occur on a ongoing basis. It must be sustainable for those involved.


Also, IMHO: anyone playing for cash payouts should be playing pro.
Disc golf is a hobby, not an occupation.

 

[jtencer]

There are a couple of areas in the country where most events are non-PDGA. If this were true, disc golf would be booming in those areas, but it's not.

You have to be careful with cause and effect here. Are there few PDGA tournaments here because DG isn't very big or is DG not very big because there aren't enough PDGA tournaments? Do you actually think that holding more PDGA sanctioned events in these areas would do much to grow the sport locally?

 

[dscmn]

all of these problems are solved with one simple solution--and it does not include creating another disc golf organization (may god have mercy). eliminate the amateur and professional designations. no more am, no more pro. see? problems solved.

 

[dmalexander]

I play just to play. I love meeting pros and ams and watching there form to see where I can improve. I think TDs do what they can to run a good, yet difficult tourney so that it's a fun and interfering event. A lot of time goes into something like that, and most don't make enough, they do it cause they want to, so that people will come to there course and to grow the sport in general. I'm only an 878 rated player, but that rating means very little to me, it's merely a snapshot of my game, so I could care less if divisions were condensed to just one am and one pro. Just go out and have fun, if your not having fun the take a break from the sport or tournaments at least to get some perspective as to why you fell in love with playing in the first place. And remember, it's just a game.

 

[mashnut]

all of these problems are solved with one simple solution--and it does not include creating another disc golf organization (may god have mercy). eliminate the amateur and professional designations. no more am, no more pro. see? problems solved.

Like David said above, run some of those tournaments and see how it goes. You would solve some problems but I doubt you would get anywhere near the current participation levels.

 

[jtencer]

I'd be willing to sacrifice some participation if the tournaments actually had a positive effect on the course and the growth of the sport.

 

[mashnut]

I'm not sure how decreased event participation would lead to course improvements or growth of the sport, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

 

[thrembo]

No matter what you do you will never make everyone happy. I like getting a sweet disc with a cool limited tournament stamp on it, in a players pack. Some of the hottest discs ever are tournament discs. I like getting a t-shirt once in awhile too. Food and drink are always welcome.

If the tournament cost to much, doesn't have the players pack you want, or you don't like the payout;
DON'T ENTER IT! I know that I have been blessed with the type of leagues who get it right, for the most part, (A3 and SSP) when they run a tournament. And even they have at least one person at a tournament who will complain about something.

Suck it up, and get your asses out there and play, and be greatful that you have the opportunity to play competitively.

 

[smyith]

Too much too read so ill state my views:

i do not like the increasing attitude amongst TDs that you dont need to know anything unless they think you do. for instance, i asked about what the payouts at a tourny were going to be (which are almosts always posted before the second round begins). I was told that i'll know when everyone else does. that bothers me. it makes me think that their being shady in some way, whether or not they are it gives that impression.

i feel, nix that, i believe the percentage of your entry fee going towards payout should be posted for all to see before the tourny. and along with this your entry fee should go only towards your divisions payout.
i dont know if its actually true or not, but if my entry fee is going towards the pro pot then that makes me mad. in no way should AMs be the ones to support the PROs. thats exploiting the only true fans of DG.

if AMs ever go to trophies only and no payout, i for one will stop playing tournaments and just play local leagues. and i doubt im the only one that feels that way. i truly could care less about trophies and medals, i cant even tell you where all my various medals and trophies are. i think the payouts make DG more unique and ultimately more appealing towards newcomers.
from my experience the average tournament dg'r plays the average tournament for 2 reasons. 1) Friendly competition 2) win plastic/$. 1st place just means more plastic/$, not the pride of being first. now this is completely different for a major event, thats more about being the best on the weekend and then about $.

i think its ridiculous that players parties are taken out of entry fees. i recently learned of this and have since avoided tournaments with players parties. once again why i think the percentage of your entry fee going towards payout should be posted BEFORE the tournament. there are a few tournaments ive always wanted to play and would put up with this to play.

players packs are not necessary, but once again it should be posted on the flyer or tourny info if there will or will not be one. i dont care one way or the other. however, i dont care for the huge players pack, especially since that comes out of the payout. give me the choice of one disc from a few different molds with a sweet tourny stamp on it. thats the most i want/expect. and as i think about it forgo the players pack and improve payout.

 

[dscmn]

Like David said above, run some of those tournaments and see how it goes. You would solve some problems but I doubt you would get anywhere near the current participation levels.

it would automatically increase participation--guaranteed. when open is no longer a division but a type of tournament, you'd have tournaments that divide players based on some arithmetic be it skill (ratings-based) or age. and true open tournaments--open to all players.

if it is a divisional tournament, there would be a new division for the players who used to play open. unless no one shows for that division, you're not losing participation; participation would stay the same at the very least. that previous amateur players could play and win cash in their respective divisions now would no doubt increase not decrease participation. unless folks really wanted those crappy discs they were giving away.

if it is an open tournament, many players who used to steer clear because of their amateur status could play now. test the waters, so to speak, and even keep the cash. why not?

tournament styles would emerge as players choose with their feet. either they like it and sign up or don't like it and choose a different tournament to attend. that "magical" market will determine the most popular tournament styles.

 

[Lewis]

5 hours? Really? I've rarely had a tourney round last more than 3.

Either way, your solution would make it worse. Although your playing time may be faster, each round would be even longer. In the shotgun format, each round lasts exactly as long as it takes the slowest group to play. In your format, each round is the slowest group + the time to get earlier groups off the first tee.

The best way to control time is to use shorter tees for the lower divisions. That helps keep them moving at the same pace as the pros (in theory).

This isn't exactly true. Slow groups have to wait for other slow groups to finish holes so it gets compounded. I have been at holes where there were 4 groups waiting to tee off. I know my solution isn't a good one. There just has to be a better way. Yeah, I had one round last just under 5 hours but that was the worst.

Pros don't move faster than some other divisions in my experience, usually slower unless you are talking recreational with heavy shule. If I had to guess I would say Master Pro or AM1 are the fastest divisions. With Rec/Inter being slowest.

My experience jibs more with with Guurn's than with bradharris's. I played in the Rec division in a C-tier tournament this year. The Rec division was the last off the course, not because we were playing slower, but because we were playing faster than the other divisions, which all piled up behind the slowest-playing pro open division. Being among the fastest-playing groups, and the one who started the round just ahead of the pros on the course, we found ourselves at the back of a badly backed up tournament, finishing both rounds after 4 hours of mostly waiting. I believe the pros were the first off the course because they were the slowest groups and did not get piled up at the tee pads at the end of the rounds. They caused the slow pace of the tournament, but got off the course faster because they were not waiting at the end of the round. But that's my limited experience.

Rest assured that in a tournament where there is a group shotgun starting at every hole, the first groups off the course are the ones from the division that plays the slowest, and the last groups off the course are from the division that started the round just ahead of slowest group.

 

[Emoney]

I like the idea of a large players pack for all ams and having CTPs the ams play for trophy only. You dont see am raquetball(or other obscure sport) tourneys where they play for merch. Play for pride and the experience which is what being an am is all about

I like this idea also. Nice player packs for the Am entry fee and no payout. Maybe first place Am would get a nice pre-selected disc/prize. Also, nice 1st,2nd and 3rd place trophies for the Am divisions.

This would eliminate baggers, if u disagree, tell me..but i think this is the solution. It would also push the top Ams to want to go pro.

Its really a simple thing that could change tournies for the better.

 

[#19325]

I have a scenario for this weekend so people can see some numbers to get an idea of what it takes to run a disc golf tournament.

I chose the Channahon Open (Sunday) since it was in my state, knew the entry fees, and the results are up.

Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
_____
$299

Income
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters $48

 

[#19325]

I have a scenario for this weekend so people can see some numbers to get an idea of what it takes to run a disc golf tournament.

I chose the Channahon Open (Sunday) since it was in my state, knew the entry fees, and the results are up.

Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
_____
$299

Income
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters $48

I wasn't quite done and accidentally posted.


Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
--Trophies ??
--Tournament supplies and copies??
--Course/Pavillion rental fee??
--Misc Expenses??
$1,144--Pro Cash Payouts
$573 --Pro Master Payouts
--Player Pack Cost??
--Am Payouts Cost??
--50/50 Cash CTP Paid out??
--Ace Pool Pait out??
_____
$2016

Income
--Pro Added Cash???
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters Entry $48
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$75--Advanced Women Entry $35
$114--Advanced Masters $38
$175--Advanced GrandMasters $35
$105--Advanced Senior GrandMasters $35
--Ace Pool
--50/50 Cash CTP
____
$2449