Short stride

[sidewinder22]

Lizotte hammering forward:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

photobucket is blocked at work. Can you stick that on imgur?

 

[sidewinder22]

See if I got this attachment right.

 

[sidewinder22]

My favorite drill to do in clinics is something that evolved from the bottle drills on DGR. I get some pvc pipe, 1ft or so. Put a cap or something of the sort on it. I hold the pvc pipe by the cap, and do my throw at high speed. I can leverage the pipe out of the cap and like 75ft down the fairway. Usually the cap shoots straight backwards out of my hand. I use it to help show the leverage you can create with proper technique. Its an eye popper.

I've heard you talk about that drill before and like the premise behind it. Just never had time to find a pipe and cap. What size and length pipe do you use?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Shot to shot, it's going to change (the amount of shoulder pull) - but the above gif sorta shows the way it feels for me.

And this is the hardest part to explain: very little (if anything) LOOKS different. It's more the intent you go into the hit with.

Pulling hard later, to me feels like I'm cracking the hammer full forward so that I could smash a board on the right side.

The disc still ejects in the same place (4:00) on the rim - but at the last point on the rim, it feels like I'm pulling to the right. When I time my shoulders right, I do absolutely nothing harder, I mean zero - and the disc ejects harder.

Wide rail is substantially easier for me to feel this - and I think it might be why I'm thinking of it as "to the right" more than with a straight back hammer forward. When I throw with a straight back swing, hammer forward, I don't really think of it as a to the right thing.

 

[zj1002]

I've heard you talk about that drill before and like the premise behind it. Just never had time to find a pipe and cap. What size and length pipe do you use?

I'll check when I get home.

 

[sidewinder22]

Shot to shot, it's going to change (the amount of shoulder pull) - but the above gif sorta shows the way it feels for me.

And this is the hardest part to explain: very little (if anything) LOOKS different. It's more the intent you go into the hit with.

Pulling hard later, to me feels like I'm cracking the hammer full forward so that I could smash a board on the right side.

The disc still ejects in the same place (4:00) on the rim - but at the last point on the rim, it feels like I'm pulling to the right. When I time my shoulders right, I do absolutely nothing harder, I mean zero - and the disc ejects harder.

Wide rail is substantially easier for me to feel this - and I think it might be why I'm thinking of it as "to the right" more than with a straight back hammer forward. When I throw with a straight back swing, hammer forward, I don't really think of it as a to the right thing.

Thing is on a full throw, your rear foot should have left the ground before the power zone, so there's nothing left to leverage yourself sideways. It's just incidental turning or pivoting to get out of the way of the forward momentum.

I look at it as where the hammering has it's power still leveraged through the body. Could I still hammer something to the right, yes, but it's not leveraged, it would get pushed back and not plow through like hammering a nail forward.

 

[Dan Ensor]

green is where the actual weight of the disc is, pink is where it feels like the weight is. Those drawings are wrong though. The top-right and bottom-left the pink hammer should be rotated 90 degrees to the right (head pointing towards the target), the bottom middle the entire image should be rotated 90 degrees to the right and the bottom-right one is all screwey.

I guess the lesson is how to throw/leverage the weight of the disc for mucho-grande snap.

I don't think this is quite right. The pink hammer is completely conceptual. There's no weight to make the hammer feel like it's there. It's just where the hammer would be if you were gripping a hammer handle, instead of a disc.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21385


Along the "elongated/curved" hammer thought, I drew this. It's more what I think about. My art skills are worse than either blake or jaboc. So it's not supposed to be finished, etc. Just a better hammer for the diagram.

 

[Dan Ensor]

you're NOT crazy, this is exactly what I feel. you pound the hammer head (pink) forward directly towards the target (I reference it by where my thumb is pointing), and then the momentum/mass of the disc starts going forward simultaneous to your shoulders tugging to the side/outward (bradley walker's outward pull) -- which makes it feel like you're slinging/flinging the crap out of the disc. this is the IN/OUT in the diagrams I made before. IN is the pound, OUT is the sling. Pounding it (IN) gets your pinch point to ~3 o'clock on the disc (right where you paused it), then the sling part is what gets you from 3 to 4-4:30

Bradley Walker's inward pull gets you to the power pocket, his outward pull gets you from the power pocket to the hit.

Outward pull- this is the most critical and strongest pull in the throw. It occurs from the point where the hand is roughly 11 oclock to 3oclock on the disc clock and the disc is roughly passing through the apex to the disc ejection. In this outward pull, the arm and hand is nearly *retracting* away from the target after throwing 12 oclock on the disc clock. The arm is retracting due to the fact that the length of the arm has been fully played out that shoulders continue to rotate.

Inward pull- this is the traditional "pull line" that is so often emphasized in classic disc throwing treaching. This pull line takes place at the very beginning of the throw. The inward pull is up to the point of the midline of the thrower. The inward pull happens *behind* the thrower

 

[horsethief]

I think the problem with all these comparisons is we're talking apples and oranges. HUB and I are describing a throw using the hammer pound technique, and SW and the jaboc drawing are describing the rail.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some nuggets:

I can say that being able to keep the disc's weight under control is an absolute necessity and so the hammer drills still apply. The difference with this tech is that there's no forcing of the wrist extension.

by that point the disc direction and the motion of the hand are basically working together like a sling (a good snap is almost frictionless on launch). this is sort of why the wrist opens... the inertia of the disc forces the wrist open.

The thing i have come to learn is that it is not the pivot as much as it is the raw "edge weight" (aka the weight of the hammer's head) that is really being forcibly manipulated here. This explains why it is still possible to snap without extending the wrist as long as the relative positions of the forearm line up with the body positions and timing.

Hold the bottle near the middle or bottom with the neck angled upwards (~45 degrees). pull the bottle's along the rail with the bottom of the bottle being the front as it moves along the rail. as it passes the critical point, rotate your forearm and flatten the bottle out slightly so that the water abruptly shifts to the front.

Many large handed throwers talk a lot about tumb pinch or thumb push. Basically, as you pass the critical point you want to hold your thumb down and push your thumb forward (this does not mean to point e thumb lower). The end result is a small rotation of the forearm that helps you hold on more easily and is equivalent to the "wrist breaking" portions of a golf or baseball swing.

Think of wrist extension like the break of the wrists when swinging a baseball bat. Your focus isn't really on breaking your wrists, it's getting the bat through. A strong and well-timed break of the wrists will give you more bat speed and hitting power, but if you try to exaggerate the wrist break without proper timing it will be weaker. Wrist extension is a bi-product of good positions, timing, and angles. Forcing wrist extension outside of those things will not yield a significant gain.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I think the problem with all these comparisons is we're talking apples and oranges. HUB and I are describing a throw using the hammer pound technique, and SW and the jaboc drawing are describing the rail.

What differences are there between the two?

 

[horsethief]

What differences are there between the two?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25241

 

[zj1002]

They are really the same thing. Just 2 different ways of looking at it. Some people need to hear things different ways to make it all click. I don't consider either way different. If anything the rail idea was something he came up with after, so its just a more advanced hammer pound.

 

[horsethief]

They are really the same thing. Just 2 different ways of looking at it. Some people need to hear things different ways to make it all click. I don't consider either way different. If anything the rail idea was something he came up with after, so its just a more advanced hammer pound.

I personally disagree. To me they feel completely different although the end goal (getting the edge forward) is the same among both.

Hammer: very relaxed going in, like on cruise control, then you slam your wrist open (very abruptly) and then hit the after burners for the final sling.

Rail: steady smooth acceleration from zero to afterburners, everything happens much smoother. No abrupt yanking and pounding, although there is a "pounding" feeling at the end with your wrist, it's nowhere near as abrupt or forceful as the hammer.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Hmm, I may have mashed together the styles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liuPgsicl9Y

I don't feel like I'm slamming my wrist open, but that could also be the feeling I'm getting from trying to hammer the disc to the right. Maybe that's the wrist opening... it could be that it's wrist extension.

 

[DiscFifty]

Is it just me or is there a fine line between proper "hammer time" and "coiling the disc" ?

 

[Dan Ensor]

"Coiling the disc" the form flaw? Or passive loading of the wrist?

 

[zj1002]

I personally disagree. To me they feel completely different although the end goal (getting the edge forward) is the same among both.

Hammer: very relaxed going in, like on cruise control, then you slam your wrist open (very abruptly) and then hit the after burners for the final sling.

Rail: steady smooth acceleration from zero to afterburners, everything happens much smoother. No abrupt yanking and pounding, although there is a "pounding" feeling at the end with your wrist, it's nowhere near as abrupt or forceful as the hammer.

Again, some people need to hear/see technique different for it to work. this accomplishes that. It's the same goal - to leverage the disc.

 

[DiscFifty]

"Coiling the disc" the form flaw? Or passive loading of the wrist?

Referencing bad form. Seems like some of those peeps with so called excessive coiling might not be that far off after all. ?