PMantle
* Ace Member *
Nope, no par 2. Discuss poor design in the poor design thread.
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Par Talk
- Thread starter Steve West
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,855
Prove it.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Sacre bleu! How could they!
teemkey
* Ace Member *
I have a question.
Should there be different pars for different divisions?
Should there be different pars for different divisions?
F. Howl
* Ace Member *
No, that would make par even more meaningless. We should have one benchmark: how well do you perform compared to an expert.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Yes, that follows the official definition. However, let's say you're the TD of a woman-only or amateur-only event. Why would you chose a MPO player as your reference expert?
F. Howl
* Ace Member *
Because "I shot 7 under Amateur-Master-Women-70-and-Over-Par" is meaningless other than that one tournament, in that one division it was referencing. An amateur player knows he doesn't shoot as well as a pro, but using a benchmark (like par) helps them measure and track their performance. Ams don't need to be coddled.
PMantle
* Ace Member *
Tee pad issue.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Not necessarily. There was a recent DGPT event where FPO played the same tee and basket as MPO, but the hole's par was one greater (5 v. 4).
PMantle
* Ace Member *
Oh, I am not saying that won't work.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Since low score wins regardless of par, I'm not sure there is an objective meaning of par. What do you think it is?
broomerang
Double Eagle Member
There seems to be a misunderstanding of what amateur means compared to recreational. I'm going to explain the difference below and will likely offend a decent amount of people in this thread. Read it, think about it, offer counter thoughts, or skip it and flame me anyway your choice.
As an Amateur I very much like Par to reflect the expected or average score a Pro would likely score with no errors. Birdies should reflect playing better than average on the hole. Eagles should reflect another level of excellence above that. Bogey and worse should be the direct result of an error that can be corrected by the player.
I cannot always get a Birdie or an Eagle on a hole that I see one of the top Pros repeatedly earn. They are better players than me, not only in skill but in consistency. But when I sometimes do it feels great and I enjoy hunting down those moments on the course. Failure to achieve a score under par doesn't mean I have failed to play well. Sometimes you have the extra edge and sometimes you don't. If a hole has Par that is properly set and I played flawlessly, and I did not achieve Par, then I know the gap between my skill and another player is defined by that difference in strokes. It's an objective reference point that I can use to get better and I will work on it and track my progress.
Professional Golfers tend to achieve higher ranking over each other through consistency in their play not raw skill. This is also a driving factor to playing the same course multiple times at an event, it rewards the best overall (most consistent) play during that event.
Amateur Golfers are typically much more susceptible to the up and down nature of a individual skill based game. As I said earlier sometimes you have the extra edge and sometimes you don't. It's easy to blame outside factors for poor performance. The truth is Par is the one independently controlled constant in a sea of variables that make up your game that day, hole, round, weekend, etc. Golf, Bowling, hell even shuffleboard stare this common element. The pins and lane are regulated, the positions on the board are worth the same set amount of points. In Golf the weather is different, the course goes through seasonal changes, your discs are different than someone elses, the only constant between you and another player is Par.
In Golf the ability of the player to achieve a score is more than just his physical skill, it requires his/her entire mental abilities as well. Resiliency, the ability to adapt, to problem solve situations he/she was not prepared for.
Because Par is the only set constant it has intrinsic value. It is not just a number, it is everything to the meaning of the game. Without Par there is no Golf just someone throwing a plastic disc at a target for fun.
People that do not care about Par are recreational players because they view the game as an activity not constrained by it's outcome. It's not an invalid opinion but it has nothing to do with the game of Golf.
I play with plenty of rec players. They are all great people and I enjoy playing with them very much. Some of them practice, some of them don't. Some own 1 disc, some own hundreds, some play tournaments and some don't. Rec isn't a dirty word in my eyes but neither is Par a dirty word in theirs. They are not concerned with a hole being "too hard" because their ability to enjoy playing is not defined by the outcome.
And that is the difference between us. I've got the devil on my back, he is relentless and sometimes I defeat him and it feels amazing. Other times he wins the battle but he will never win the war.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
It just seems to me that an 700' hole being called a par 3 for FA70+ is ridiculous.
broomerang
Double Eagle Member
Women and Men probably should have different Pars set for tournament play. But often times they do not play the exact same holes / layout at tournaments as men and therefore is not an issue.
None tournament rounds only need 1 par to be set for it to achieve it's one and only job. To remain constant.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Par is only relevant to tournament competition when a player misses a hole and has to take par+4. So in the case of FA70+ a player missing the par 3 600' hole likely achieves an advantage over a player who misses a par 3 200' hole.
broomerang
Double Eagle Member
I disagree, par is not only relevant in tournament rounds. Nor is it only relevant under that one section of the rules to assess a penalty for missing a hole.
FA70+ playing a 700' hole might not be ridiculous, but it's close.
This thread started and was mainly focused on par for top-level events.
Setting separate pars for different divisions at local events would be a lot of work, for little benefit.
But there is a line of thought for setting skill-level par based on course. So a red-level course would have par set for red-level players. Those courses won't have many 1000-rated players, and such a par would be closer to right for a lot of competitors.
Myself, I have mixed feelings about the notion of skill-level par. But I'll confess that the only course on which I'm to blame for par settings, is probably more blue-level, in course and par, than suitable for pros.
Setting separate pars for different divisions at local events would be a lot of work, for little benefit.
But there is a line of thought for setting skill-level par based on course. So a red-level course would have par set for red-level players. Those courses won't have many 1000-rated players, and such a par would be closer to right for a lot of competitors.
Myself, I have mixed feelings about the notion of skill-level par. But I'll confess that the only course on which I'm to blame for par settings, is probably more blue-level, in course and par, than suitable for pros.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,855
Couple of thoughts: If bogey or worse should reflect an error that can be corrected by the player, doesn't that mean par had to be set for that player?
I think there are some skills that an expert has that almost no Amateurs have. (Granted, this is only because in disc golf almost everyone who is any good gets pressured to play Open.)
Let's say the skill the expert has is to be able to throw 600 feet. An amateur player who throws his maximum distance at 500 feet has not made an error that can be corrected by the player. So, should it result in a bogey? Or, should par be set based on that 500 foot max throw? Especially if 500 feet is the farthest any Amateur can throw effectively?
Also, why does golf have handicapping?
Perhaps if there were only par 2's, but one of the beauties of golf (any type) is that an "expert" (or the rest of us too...just to a lesser extent) needs to have several 'skills'. And these manifest themselves much better on holes that are at least 3pars. It's not the Remax Long Drive Championships you know, it's golf.
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