Swinging upward nose down.

[rhatton1]

Can someone explain HOW this is reality? I've NEVER understood how these photos make any sense. All I see is the first guy with his disc nose down, and PP's disc nose up right before the discs launches from their hand. And I understand that the body balance, swing plane, body positions, etc make a difference. But just looking at the two discs right before they come out, the guy on the left has his disc nose down, and PP is nose up. If I were to just look at this and not know anything about throwing a disc (which sometimes I still don't think I know as much as I should, haha), it looks like PP will throw that disc into the stratosphere, and the guy on the left right into the ground.

So how does this work out in reality, because I obviously know PP's throw is not going to be nose up, but I just don't understand how this works, and something I still continue to not understand or know how to correct.

Doesn't matter how perfect I put the disc in my hand and grip it, then tilt my wrist down, I usually throw with some tiny or medium amount of nose up and know I'm loosing distance from it. It feels SO awkward to try and tilt your wrist down, hold on to the disc tight (but somehow keep a loose arm and grip till the last sec) and throw a great shot. NONE of the disc golf swing feels natural or powerful and continues to baffle me, haha.

This picture is a snapshot. At the "Hit" Paiges forearm would have slung forward, and the portion of the disc currently about 270 degrees (anticlockwise) from her thumb will be the nose. So at the "hit" her fist will be somewhere near the top of the P in the picture and the disc will be strongly nose down relative to the trajectory of her forearm - pointing almost level with the top of the U.

As for your own nose down I would suspect it is nothing to do with grip or swing plane but because you are not fully posting on the front leg before you swing and you are not getting your weight forward into the shot, you'll be throwing off the backside instead of the front.

This would chime with some of the other threads where it's been talked about almost feeling like you are falling forwards and having to catch your weight through the X step . I would guess you struggle to throw long anhyzers that ride/glide out of the turn, they probably get up to the turn and then stall out and dump left (OAT can actually counter this a bit but from memory your throws are pretty clean).

Get in the field, get on your toes (important) and try to feel like you are falling forwards towards the target through the Xstep (start with the first step with your body straight on even as the left foot crosses and only getting side on/away right at the end as the right/plant foot goes forward (think Hershyzer drill). The one trick with this when working on it is not rushing it (stupidly easy to do with the falling forwards feel, you can find yourself almost doing Fred Flintstone feet) Try to go through the motion slowly and just let the arm swing in and away. You should pretty quickly notice a lower trajectory flight that carries a bit more than you are used to.

I don't have a radar gun but my Sprocker spaniel is a brilliant indicator of the relative speeds of a throw with weight on the back foot vs front foot. Back foot she will catch the discs up and be waiting underneath to catch it, front foot she will be chasing it all the way and never have a chance of catching it up. Effort wise they both feel the same and with putters will carry close to the same distance on a straight throw. The big difference is on the front foot I can throw the big high lines either anny or hyzer flip and gain loads more distance gliding out of the turn, throwing on the back foot these will just stall out and go the same as the straight throw.

 

[SuperWookie]

This picture is a snapshot. At the "Hit" Paiges forearm would have slung forward, and the portion of the disc currently about 270 degrees (anticlockwise) from her thumb will be the nose. So at the "hit" her fist will be somewhere near the top of the P in the picture and the disc will be strongly nose down relative to the trajectory of her forearm - pointing almost level with the top of the U.

As for your own nose down I would suspect it is nothing to do with grip or swing plane but because you are not fully posting on the front leg before you swing and you are not getting your weight forward into the shot, you'll be throwing off the backside instead of the front.

This would chime with some of the other threads where it's been talked about almost feeling like you are falling forwards and having to catch your weight through the X step . I would guess you struggle to throw long anhyzers that ride/glide out of the turn, they probably get up to the turn and then stall out and dump left (OAT can actually counter this a bit but from memory your throws are pretty clean).

Get in the field, get on your toes (important) and try to feel like you are falling forwards towards the target through the Xstep (start with the first step with your body straight on even as the left foot crosses and only getting side on/away right at the end as the right/plant foot goes forward (think Hershyzer drill). The one trick with this when working on it is not rushing it (stupidly easy to do with the falling forwards feel, you can find yourself almost doing Fred Flintstone feet) Try to go through the motion slowly and just let the arm swing in and away. You should pretty quickly notice a lower trajectory flight that carries a bit more than you are used to.

I don't have a radar gun but my Sprocker spaniel is a brilliant indicator of the relative speeds of a throw with weight on the back foot vs front foot. Back foot she will catch the discs up and be waiting underneath to catch it, front foot she will be chasing it all the way and never have a chance of catching it up. Effort wise they both feel the same and with putters will carry close to the same distance on a straight throw. The big difference is on the front foot I can throw the big high lines either anny or hyzer flip and gain loads more distance gliding out of the turn, throwing on the back foot these will just stall out and go the same as the straight throw.

Oooooooookkkk. I did not know that. I feel really stupid now for not knowing that :doh: You guys are saying the BACK of the disc becomes the front??!? Because of the disc pivoting out of your hand?

And if that is correct, then my next question is: does that pivot happen even if you can't throw correctly yet? Like I still can't just sling the disc out 400-500' just using proper form and body movements (where my arm is "just along for the ride"). I can throw max around 330-350' golf lines (by strong arming it) because I still can't throw correctly. I do somethings alright, somethings well, and a lot of things not so well yet.

But if I throw in that range, IS THE DISC PIVOTING out of my hand? Or do you have to have proper form for this idea to work? Meaning, for the back of the disc to pivot to be down at the hit, do you have to have 100% proper form? Or can you still be not throwing correctly, and still use this idea of the back of the disc being the nose at the hit?

And thanks for all that other info, I'll have to work on that next field session (maybe today if I'm lucky, and get some video). :thmbup:

 

[rhatton1]

An Oldie - apologies for the whispering I was meant to be working.



Yes the pivot is there to some degree in most form. So much of the explosive forces come from sudden redirections of the disc. eVerything posture wise is about setting up the most efficient transfer of power to make those redirections work on plane and as powerfully as possible.

Most am players will have their hand on the front edge of the disc pulling the disc through before the lower arm swings out, the pro players will have their hand on the outside of the disc before the lower arm swings out and this will create a far faster acceleration

 

[timothy42b]

Most am players will have their hand on the front edge of the disc pulling the disc through before the lower arm swings out, the pro players will have their hand on the outside of the disc before the lower arm swings out and this will create a far faster acceleration

I've looked at a lot of slo mo and I'm not sure how much the disc really swings out, but if you have your hand on the outside, the radius of the arc is a good bit longer, and the speed is the angular rate times the radius.

But here's my recent thought. Looking at Eagle's insane arm bend on the forehand, it looks to me that he gets his fingers on the outside of the disc for a forehand too, not just backhand.

That mental image maybe helped me yesterday; I parked a disc forehand after my partner said you'll never get it there.

 

[rhatton1]

But here's my recent thought. Looking at Eagle's insane arm bend on the forehand, it looks to me that he gets his fingers on the outside of the disc for a forehand too, not just backhand.

Yes he does to an extent, you can't get quite as far around with the forehand as the backhand but it's the same slingshot concept.

 

[rhatton1]

I've looked at a lot of slo mo and I'm not sure how much the disc really swings out, but if you have your hand on the outside, the radius of the arc is a good bit longer, and the speed is the angular rate times the radius.

Fortunately we have some really good videos to show it -

use the < and > on the video and you can see from the stamp that it slings around from power pocket (just inside left shoulder for Ezra) to dis release that it has pivoted over 200 degrees. Some of the other guys get even more than this. Anyone that gets deeper into the right shoulder with a closed front shoulder before swinging out will get a larger redirection.

 

[Waddball]

if you have your hand on the outside, the radius of the arc is a good bit longer, and the speed is the angular rate times the radius.

That mental image maybe helped me yesterday

I'm picturing someone muttering "speed is angular rate times radius" over and over as they approach each tee.

 

[SuperWookie]

An Oldie - apologies for the whispering I was meant to be working.



Yes the pivot is there to some degree in most form. So much of the explosive forces come from sudden redirections of the disc. eVerything posture wise is about setting up the most efficient transfer of power to make those redirections work on plane and as powerfully as possible.

Most am players will have their hand on the front edge of the disc pulling the disc through before the lower arm swings out, the pro players will have their hand on the outside of the disc before the lower arm swings out and this will create a far faster acceleration

Yeah, HUB has talked about that more than a few times. How the disc being leveraged out or pivoting out as late as possible is THE KEY to throwing far. Everything else just adds small little bumps in distance, but that you will see the biggest jump in distance by harnessing the magic of the redirect or pivot.

I still can't figure that and a few other important things out I practice these ideas but it just never translates once the disc is in my hand. But thank you for the help and pointing me towards another of your great videos Richard! Great stuff

 

[seedlings]

An Oldie - apologies for the whispering I was meant to be working.



Yes the pivot is there to some degree in most form. So much of the explosive forces come from sudden redirections of the disc. eVerything posture wise is about setting up the most efficient transfer of power to make those redirections work on plane and as powerfully as possible.

Most am players will have their hand on the front edge of the disc pulling the disc through before the lower arm swings out, the pro players will have their hand on the outside of the disc before the lower arm swings out and this will create a far faster acceleration

It has been touched on in yours and SW22 vids, but maybe we (by 'we' I mean you guys) could get a dedicated video for disc release supinate/pronate/'hand outside'/'push the disc' to see what the wrist and forearm should be doing. I say this because the 'pouring coffee' feels right in the backswing, but feels nose-up at the hit. The thumb push seems to be a pronate motion, which feels great in follow through, but makes the disc nose-up (maybe just because I don't do it right). Supinate feels nose down at the hit, but awkward on the follow through.

 

[Waddball]

the 'pouring coffee' feels right in the backswing, but feels nose-up at the hit.

Hm, I don't feel that. I do feel it's really hard to maintain that flex (esp. staying loose? whatever).

The thumb push seems to be a pronate motion, which feels great in follow through, but makes the disc nose-up (maybe just because I don't do it right). Supinate feels nose down at the hit, but awkward on the follow through.

Yeah, this I feel. I've wondered about this as well, where some supination is clearly ideal at the hit (for the nose angle), but feels terrible and even injury-inducing if you really put force behind it.

I don't think any pro does any supination on the backswing, but several do a little pronate/floppy wrist (GG most prominent example probably) that then flips back to neutral. So moving toward supination and maybe that's helpful for nose angle?

 

[RowingBoats]

Hm, I don't feel that. I do feel it's really hard to maintain that flex (esp. staying loose? whatever).

Yeah, this I feel. I've wondered about this as well, where some supination is clearly ideal at the hit (for the nose angle), but feels terrible and even injury-inducing if you really put force behind it.

I don't think any pro does any supination on the backswing, but several do a little pronate/floppy wrist (GG most prominent example probably) that then flips back to neutral. So moving toward supination and maybe that's helpful for nose angle?

Looking at videos, and in my own experience, there should be little/no pronation at the hit. Pronation does seem to happen in the follow-through naturally, and it also feels natural to WANT to pronate early.

I watched quite a few videos just to confirm this and can't find a good example of a pronated wrist at the hit, all the pros look like they are backhanding someone, not karate chopping them.

 

[SuperWookie]

Fortunately we have some really good videos to show it -

use the < and > on the video and you can see from the stamp that it slings around from power pocket (just inside left shoulder for Ezra) to dis release that it has pivoted over 200 degrees. Some of the other guys get even more than this. Anyone that gets deeper into the right shoulder with a closed front shoulder before swinging out will get a larger redirection.

Not sure what it is, but this video just opened my eyes to more of what is "actually" happening in the throw, that I just couldn't see until now. I know it's probably been mentioned a ton of times, but I am just realizing how the arm and core works together.

Ezra showing how his arm goes back pretty much in line with his intended disc flight path, then his shoulders start to turn and he just locks his upper arm at that 90* and lets the lower arm swing free back into the pocket, then extend out again. I see now how the whole body with the hips, leg movement, momentum and everything could possibly sling your arm and the disc super far.

But the problem as always with Disc golf is NOT knowing or understanding HOW it works, but how to MAKE it work? No matter how much I practice this stuff, I can't get my body to do these extremely odd/unnatural movements. Keep lose, but somehow grip the disc super tight right before it leaves your hand. Keep your upper arm locked at around 90*, but somehow let your forearm swing freely. And lots of others, haha. SOOOO hard! Golf, tennis, hockey, baseball, everything was SO much easier than this.

But at least I just made another big break thru in how I understand what exactly is going on. I don't know why this video makes it click for me, but seeing Ezra show this makes so much sense. Just need to figure out HOW to actually do it now. Thanks for sharing

 

[seedlings]

*snip* all the pros look like they are backhanding someone, not karate chopping them.

Yep. If starting with 'pour coffee' position in the back swing, backhand is starting to supinate while karate chop is starting to pronate. But, maybe it's more of a neutral position? I often hear commentators say 'he really got over on that one' and sometimes wonder if it is a wrist/forearm intentional supinate to increase spin (or it could just mean a bit too much anhyzer)

 

[RowingBoats]

Yep. If starting with 'pour coffee' position in the back swing, backhand is starting to supinate while karate chop is starting to pronate. But, maybe it's more of a neutral position? I often hear commentators say 'he really got over on that one' and sometimes wonder if it is a wrist/forearm intentional supinate to increase spin (or it could just mean a bit too much anhyzer)

I'm no expert, but the way I think of it is just to keep the disc in line with my forearm. I do not alter my grip angle at all to do hyzer/anhyzer, that is 100% controlled by my posture. Bend over to hyzer, stand up straighter/lean back to anhyzer.

Maybe I am doing it wrong haha, throwing a big anhyzer seems impossible to do correctly with much power at my current understanding level, so I don't try it often.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure what it is, but this video just opened my eyes to more of what is "actually" happening in the throw, that I just couldn't see until now. I know it's probably been mentioned a ton of times, but I am just realizing how the arm and core works together.

Ezra showing how his arm goes back pretty much in line with his intended disc flight path, then his shoulders start to turn and he just locks his upper arm at that 90* and lets the lower arm swing free back into the pocket, then extend out again. I see now how the whole body with the hips, leg movement, momentum and everything could possibly sling your arm and the disc super far.

But the problem as always with Disc golf is NOT knowing or understanding HOW it works, but how to MAKE it work? No matter how much I practice this stuff, I can't get my body to do these extremely odd/unnatural movements. Keep lose, but somehow grip the disc super tight right before it leaves your hand. Keep your upper arm locked at around 90*, but somehow let your forearm swing freely. And lots of others, haha. SOOOO hard! Golf, tennis, hockey, baseball, everything was SO much easier than this.

But at least I just made another big break thru in how I understand what exactly is going on. I don't know why this video makes it click for me, but seeing Ezra show this makes so much sense. Just need to figure out HOW to actually do it now. Thanks for sharing

You need to create lag tension and a bounce/sling/whip effect so the arm/disc accelerates faster than the body. Door Frame Drills.

We are not a wheel or driveshaft where the only way to increase distance is by rotating faster.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQeHCkx...isb4WTXnwDfrvR7Ae0cP_8L0WkkOMwYtckrVkbC-CeIGk

Simon is much greater than 90 even though he says to lock it at 90.

 

[timothy42b]

Fortunately we have some really good videos to show it

use the < and > on the video and you can see from the stamp that it slings around from power pocket (just inside left shoulder for Ezra) to dis release that it has pivoted over 200 degrees. Some of the other guys get even more than this. Anyone that gets deeper into the right shoulder with a closed front shoulder before swinging out will get a larger redirection.

I've watched it frame by frame and I'm not sure I see the same thing you do.

I'm not disagreeing with any of your advice (your videos are great and have helped me a lot). I just tend to think the disc pivot is not what is really happening, though the throwing of the back side and the late release is. I hate to pick a nit but......well actually i don't, it's what i do and why I'm good at my job, I just hate to annoy people with it.

[And just to mention a nit that got picked, when I started on this forum about 5 years ago, most people here thought the disc released when shoulders pointed at the target and arm was in line with the shoulders. Now we understand the shoulders are still a bit closed and the hit point is not far from 90 to the shoulders. But that didn't change much about learning to throw.]

If the disc were to accelerate and flip away from the hand, a force would be required. That force can easily be as a torque, if and only (as math teachers say) if the force forward of the center of mass of the disc and the backward force of the hand slowing or stopping produce a couple. That puts the spin on the disc. I don't really see how it accelerates the forward velocity much, maybe it does. I wish I had a blackboard and could draw free body diagrams.

Here's what I see in the Ezra overheads frame by frame. The stamp maintains a constant angle to the line of the forearm. The forearm moves in an arc, which is not quite a circle because the center point is the elbow which is moving, but the elbow is decelerating from inertial forces. The stamp of the disc rotates with the forearm. Important point - at any given instant the disc is moving straight although it is on a curved path. As we near release point and the hand continues to travel, the hand starts to move away from the line to the target. The disc appears to flip out away from the hand, and - I think - it does a little, but the hand is also moving away from that line, and I think the hand motion is by far the largest component. At release, the disc rips away from the finger. Okay, that means the finger applies a force backwards to the disc. The center of mass is moving away, and if release is at 3:00 then that is the maximum moment arm possible between those two forces, so maximum torque and therefore maximum spin is applied.

So, little or no disc pivot, lots of hand following the correct path to pull the disc where it needs to go.

This is completely academic and has nothing to do with learning to throw.

I would need another beer to explain more completely but I need to be to work early tomorrow.

 

[sidewinder22]

There are some weird directions this one goes, but I wonder about the actual forearm rotation into the hit.

Thing is, I don't see that rolling in the pros, but they do flip from vertical to on plane.

Ulibarri - how to throw nose up - elbow above wrist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyk8gdIjK5o#t=1m40s

 

[sidewinder22]

[And just to mention a nit that got picked, when I started on this forum about 5 years ago, most people here thought the disc released when shoulders pointed at the target and arm was in line with the shoulders. Now we understand the shoulders are still a bit closed and the hit point is not far from 90 to the shoulders. But that didn't change much about learning to throw.]

I agree with you on the myth of the disc pivot.

I disagree with the 90 shoulder. The biggest moment arm you can create would be the arm inline with shoulders. GG, Wiggins, Avery, Sandstrom, Oakley, and Clemons get about as close as possible. The biggest difference between Simon and Wiggins and myself below is that Simon's foot has pivoted, so that extra rotation is not transferring energy to the arm since the foot is spinning.

Also see post #35 above ^.

 

[rhatton1]

Maybe Disc Pivot is not the correct terminology and disc swing works better? Although I don't love this either.

When talking about a pivot I'm not trying to describe a fixed place in the grip the disc pivots around but the whole disc swinging from behind the elbow joint to in front in a very short space of time. There is a small amount of pivot around the grip right at the end but what I'm trying to describe is the bigger arc from power pocket forward.

Someone give me better terminology please I can use going forward!

 

[sidewinder22]

Disc rotation.