Supination vs pouring the coffee, how can they both be nose down?

[RowingBoats]

I think part of the issue with your video making sense to me is that you are using wildly different arm angles and not isolating the pronation/supination angles. Maybe if you try to keep a flat swing plane and neutral pro/sup wrist angle through a mock slow motion pocket/hit/hold at the release point, THEN manipulate ONLY pronation/supination to show what you mean, it might make more sense to me.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think part of the issue with your video making sense to me is that you are using wildly different arm angles and not isolating the pronation/supination angles. Maybe if you try to keep a flat swing plane and neutral pro/sup wrist angle through a mock slow motion pocket/hit/hold at the release point, THEN manipulate ONLY pronation/supination to show what you mean, it might make more sense to me.

Maybe that's where the issue is, when you supinate or pronate it makes other things want to come with it (so that the disc can pivot out) and those other factors are where the nose angle is effected.

 

[RowingBoats]

Maybe that's where the issue is, when you supinate or pronate it makes other things want to come with it (so that the disc can pivot out) and those other factors are where the nose angle is effected.

Seems like that might be the major hurdle in our discussion lol. I am isolating pronation/supination entirely as a concept.

I'm not sure that I agree that you cannot do this without other changes coming along with it. I can very much do a flat, neutral swing and adjust only the pronation/supination at the release. When you read my take on this whole thing, always know that my default wrist position is the neutral one described before, with full ulnar deviation(pouring the coffee) as a given.

I also don't think the disc pivots out in the way it might intuitively seem to. I pretty much describe the release as a hard tug away from my index finger. There are a lot of reasons why nose angle is a hard concept to discuss and truly nail down what is going on/wrong. I think that various stages of BH form have to accommodate nose angle control in different ways based on all of my reading of discussions, and what people vehemently disagree with or agree with.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think this depends on where your release point is. If you release closer to 9 o'clock vs closer to 12 o'clock these motions or arm angles are going to do opposite things to the disc angles as everything moved 90 degrees(or some variation) and a disc has no static nose, unlike an airplane that has a defined nose.

Wrist Roll or Supination/Pronation affects the wing angle(hyzer/anhyzer) when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Wrist Up/Down or Radial/Ulnar Deviation affects the nose angle when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Now if you hold your arm/disc straight out from chest, 90 degrees from target those motions are going to do the opposite to the disc angles.


"ROLLING YOUR WRIST AND FOLLOW-THROUGH - by Ken Climo

The following tips are helpful to help add distance and accuracy to tee shots. Whether 10, 50 or 100 feet of distance are added, the direction the disc goes is equally important. This piece will address three different flight patterns that can be achieved by the movement or "rolling" of the wrist.

Anybody who has ever played catch with a "lid" Frisbee knows it takes "under snap" or "under roll" of the wrist to make the disc fly straight. This is accomplished by starting with keeping the thumb of your throwing hand parallel to the ground.

Next, roll your wrist throughout the arm swing and release, finishing with your thumb pointing directly at the ground. This creates lots of hyzer and snap which allows these vintage class discs to turn and fly straight with maximum torque. Try this technique with a very understable golf disc, such as a used Stingray. This throw is great for fairways with a late turn.

For a moderately stable golf disc, such as a Roc, your thumb should remain about parallel to the ground throughout rotation and release while you turn your forearm slightly toward the sky in your follow-through. This will cause you to release with a slight hyzer angle, and follow-through is the key to keeping the disc flat through its flight. You may need to practice this technique repeatedly until it feels natural.

Finally, with the most overstable disc flight patterns, such as those produced with a Viper or Whippet, the disc must be released with anhyzer. Try to follow through on the same angle as the disc while rolling your wrist over to expose your forearm to the sky. Creating angle plus torque holds the disc's flight longer. You will have more penetration and glide, which helps the disc gain distance with an "S"-turn and not lose distance with a hard fall to the left (for right handers).

On this type of throw, you need to rotate and transfer your body weight forward, instead of down. If 12 o'clock represents the basket, most right-handed throwers start their run-up with the toes and front of the body facing 10 or 11 o'clock. They turn away and reach back to about 7 or 8 o'clock in coiling their body for the explosion.

Ideally, your weight should rotate on your front foot or plant foot, carrying your body rotation so your trailing leg ends up closest to the target. The front of your body and toes should now be facing 2 or 3 o'clock. I also believe this technique will be less strenuous to the back muscles and spine."

 

[RowingBoats]

I think this depends on where your release point is.

Ya, this is what I was trying to say earlier on. This whole conversation is kind of impossible without an extremely clear idea of where the disc is being released.

I had a brief battle with this myself recently and couldn't figure out why I was throwing nose up again while doing what felt for sure like what I always did for nose-down. I saw that my release point was considerably later than it had been previously and you are correct, doing what works for one release point at another can literally reverse what happens.

I am kind of glad it happened because it really made it clear how many variables go into throwing truly nose-down.

Wrist Roll or Supination/Pronation affects the wing angle(hyzer/anhyzer) when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Wrist Up/Down or Radial/Ulnar Deviation affects the nose angle when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Now if you hold your arm/disc straight out from chest, 90 degrees from target those motions are going to do the opposite to the disc angles.

I agree with this, and in an actual throw, to me it seems like the release is between these two positions. So a combination of ulnar deviation and slight supination puts my nose down in my normal swing.

With that said I still am not able to play around with a disc and any combination of release point and wrist position that makes me understand the initial question in this thread asserting that supination can increase hyzer angle. If anyone disagrees with me and can help me there, I'd be curious because I want to be able to at least understand.

 

[sidewinder22]

With that said I still am not able to play around with a disc and any combination of release point and wrist position that makes me understand the initial question in this thread asserting that supination can increase hyzer angle. If anyone disagrees with me and can help me there, I'd be curious because I want to be able to at least understand.

Lots of players will start supinated or in power pocket and then pronate to release for hyzer.

 

[RowingBoats]

Lots of players will start supinated or in power pocket and then pronate to release for hyzer.

Yes, completely agree. Pronation can shift towards hyzer, and supination can shift towards anhyzer. I'm just trying to help Neilyo out and don't understand asserting the opposite of these statements.

/shrugs

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, completely agree. Pronation can shift towards hyzer, and supination can shift towards anhyzer. I'm just trying to help Neilyo out and don't understand asserting the opposite of these statements.

/shrugs

Looking at the OP vid it seems that he changed the arm slot height.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think this depends on where your release point is. If you release closer to 9 o'clock vs closer to 12 o'clock these motions or arm angles are going to do opposite things to the disc angles as everything moved 90 degrees(or some variation) and a disc has no static nose, unlike an airplane that has a defined nose.

Wrist Roll or Supination/Pronation affects the wing angle(hyzer/anhyzer) when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Wrist Up/Down or Radial/Ulnar Deviation affects the nose angle when arm is pointed at trajectory.

Now if you hold your arm/disc straight out from chest, 90 degrees from target those motions are going to do the opposite to the disc angles.


"ROLLING YOUR WRIST AND FOLLOW-THROUGH - by Ken Climo

The following tips are helpful to help add distance and accuracy to tee shots. Whether 10, 50 or 100 feet of distance are added, the direction the disc goes is equally important. This piece will address three different flight patterns that can be achieved by the movement or "rolling" of the wrist.

Anybody who has ever played catch with a "lid" Frisbee knows it takes "under snap" or "under roll" of the wrist to make the disc fly straight. This is accomplished by starting with keeping the thumb of your throwing hand parallel to the ground.

Next, roll your wrist throughout the arm swing and release, finishing with your thumb pointing directly at the ground. This creates lots of hyzer and snap which allows these vintage class discs to turn and fly straight with maximum torque. Try this technique with a very understable golf disc, such as a used Stingray. This throw is great for fairways with a late turn.

For a moderately stable golf disc, such as a Roc, your thumb should remain about parallel to the ground throughout rotation and release while you turn your forearm slightly toward the sky in your follow-through. This will cause you to release with a slight hyzer angle, and follow-through is the key to keeping the disc flat through its flight. You may need to practice this technique repeatedly until it feels natural.

Finally, with the most overstable disc flight patterns, such as those produced with a Viper or Whippet, the disc must be released with anhyzer. Try to follow through on the same angle as the disc while rolling your wrist over to expose your forearm to the sky. Creating angle plus torque holds the disc's flight longer. You will have more penetration and glide, which helps the disc gain distance with an "S"-turn and not lose distance with a hard fall to the left (for right handers).

On this type of throw, you need to rotate and transfer your body weight forward, instead of down. If 12 o'clock represents the basket, most right-handed throwers start their run-up with the toes and front of the body facing 10 or 11 o'clock. They turn away and reach back to about 7 or 8 o'clock in coiling their body for the explosion.

Ideally, your weight should rotate on your front foot or plant foot, carrying your body rotation so your trailing leg ends up closest to the target. The front of your body and toes should now be facing 2 or 3 o'clock. I also believe this technique will be less strenuous to the back muscles and spine."

Thanks.

Say you want to release with 15 degrees of hyzer and you can do that with maintaining an upper body angle along with a neutral wrist (not pronated or supinated). If you can do it that way, when would you instead want to achieve the same hyzer release angle with more wrist action, such as the rolling described above?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks.

Say you want to release with 15 degrees of hyzer and you can do that with maintaining an upper body angle along with a neutral wrist (not pronated or supinated). If you can do it that way, when would you instead want to achieve the same hyzer release angle with more wrist action, such as the rolling described above?

If you want more speed/leverage, and more room to decelerate in follow thru.

 

[timothy42b]

Seems like that might be the major hurdle in our discussion lol. I am isolating pronation/supination entirely as a concept.

For a right handed backhand thrower like me, supination would be a wrist rotation clockwise.
But at the same time, an internal rotation of the shoulder, which I think is happening near release, would rotate the arm counterclockwise. That's one of many things that confuse me.

The other thing that confuses me is adjusting disc angle at the wrist. Some advocate throwing hyzer vs anhyzer with a basically vertical spine and mostly flat swing plane but changing the hand angle. Yeah, but for me that affects nose angle too.

 

[BillyP]

For RHBH
View attachment 328950

View attachment 328949

1. First of all, I've just recently heard the phrase "turning the key" yet so I'm not totally sure what the traditional advice is for it. Is it supination?
2. When people say turn the key, or supinate to help with nose angle, is the advice to do it just before the hit or maintain it throughout the swing?

I've heard people who briefcase carry (pronation) will keep some of the pronation for more anhyzer, supinate back to flat for flat shots, or supinate passed flat for hyzers. This is what Gannon said when I asked him "are you always trying to supinate back to flat and then mostly use body angle for the release angle?" He said he does both.

3. So if pronation = more anhyzer, how can supination = more nose down instead of more hyzer? Or is it both?
4. If pouring the coffee (ulnar deviation) helps nose down, how can supination help with nose down? They are very different motions. I guess as the supination rotates the wrist it is changing the direction of the coffee pour so the changed direction could be the key.

The attached video is an exaggeration so it's easier to see the differences, I know that people who briefcase carry don't maintain such extreme pronation throughout the swing even for anhyzer shots.

 

[BillyP]

Way over analyzing. Just go throw. 99,9% of us aren't ever going to win 1 dollar on the tour. You don't need all these "serve the pizza," "don't serve the pizza," "pour the coffee," "slap the bass," "choke the chicken," "slap the Slav," "tap dance with the devil," videos. Just go throw and become one with your body. Focus on one element at a time and seek efficiency then move on. Shot shaping is 125.38 times more important than distance. Knowing your discs and your own physical execution is the way to go. With that said, yes, I realize I'm giving advice about not taking advice. But this isn't a logic gotcha game. It's my opinion and I've played since the early 90's. I have never thrown more than 350' and I almost always par or better any course if I'm warmed up well. It ain't that hard.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Way over analyzing. Just go throw. 99,9% of us aren't ever going to win 1 dollar on the tour. You don't need all these "serve the pizza," "don't serve the pizza," "pour the coffee," "slap the bass," "choke the chicken," "slap the Slav," "tap dance with the devil," videos. Just go throw and become one with your body. Focus on one element at a time and seek efficiency then move on. Shot shaping is 125.38 times more important than distance. Knowing your discs and your own physical execution is the way to go. With that said, yes, I realize I'm giving advice about not taking advice. But this isn't a logic gotcha game. It's my opinion and I've played since the early 90's. I have never thrown more than 350' and I almost always par or better any course if I'm warmed up well. It ain't that hard.

THIS.

Although to be fair:

1. You have to go pro to win $6 cash in a sanctioned tournament. It's just how PDGA works for better or worse.
2. If you're gonna give tips make it sound like The Champ up there. I get exactly what he's saying while the rest of the nonsense here sounds like this:

 

[RowingBoats]

Way over analyzing. Just go throw. 99,9% of us aren't ever going to win 1 dollar on the tour. You don't need all these "serve the pizza," "don't serve the pizza," "pour the coffee," "slap the bass," "choke the chicken," "slap the Slav," "tap dance with the devil," videos. Just go throw and become one with your body. Focus on one element at a time and seek efficiency then move on. Shot shaping is 125.38 times more important than distance. Knowing your discs and your own physical execution is the way to go. With that said, yes, I realize I'm giving advice about not taking advice. But this isn't a logic gotcha game. It's my opinion and I've played since the early 90's. I have never thrown more than 350' and I almost always par or better any course if I'm warmed up well. It ain't that hard.

2. If you're gonna give tips make it sound like The Champ up there. I get exactly what he's saying while the rest of the nonsense here sounds like this:

There is a lot of wisdom in emphasizing that you need to take all of the tips, discussion, metaphors, etc...and just see how you can personally fit them into your game, I don't disagree at all with that.

But its a little bit weird to come to the "Technique and Strategy" forum and basically make a post saying don't worry about all of that technique just go play.

I'm not claiming those of us that like trying to discuss all of this in text are sane or productive, but that is uhhh...what this forum is for.

If you are cool with playing par or under, with no horizon of desired improvement to march towards, all good man, play how you want. Some of us like the grind If you consider throwing less than 350' 'becoming one with your body' in the swing, I guess I simply disagree entirely.

Plus, he is asking about nose down, not distance in particular. If you don't think throwing consistent nose down is part of shot shaping, I really, really don't know what to tell ya.

 

[CoachChris]

3. So if pronation = more anhyzer, how can supination = more nose down instead of more hyzer? Or is it both?
4. If pouring the coffee (ulnar deviation) helps nose down, how can supination help with nose down?

Neilyo You have touched on a very interesting conundrum that I have spent a bunch of time on. I have high speed cameras and a TechDisc and I will try to get some meaningful shots to explain what's going on. Whatever the variables, getting the nose angle to obey a players wishes is very difficult because there are also other arm forces contributing. (Pronation/supination is only the rolling motion of the forearm and in your video you are also introducing external shoulder rotation) AND upper arm movement forces). Thanks for bringing up the topic. I'll try to find time to add some clarity. Feel free to email me to discuss coachchristaylor at gmail

 

[CoachChris]

I think this depends on where your release point is.

Unfortunately the term "release point" has different images for different people. Some think of it as where the arm is on the arm/pull clock face when the disc leaves the arm and others, including me, only think of where on the clock face of the disc is the thumb oriented when it leaves the disc.

 

[RowingBoats]

Unfortunately the term "release point" has different images for different people. Some think of it as where the arm is on the arm/pull clock face when the disc leaves the arm and others, including me, only think of where on the clock face of the disc is the thumb oriented when it leaves the disc.

I think the release point is both of these concepts together, it is literally just the position one is in at the final moment before the disc rips out. This includes both your arm position and hand position on the disc.

I do think this is why a lot of nose down discussions are convoluted. If you aren't getting a full rip/hit, the nose is absolutely going to be a different part of the disc and require different manipulation to create a nose down trajectory, than for those that are getting a full hit.

I am super stoked to start seeing people with high end slow motion captures and tech disc stats start to really REALLY capture all of this though. Curious about how wrong I am about what I'm even doing in my own swings lol. I think feel vs real is a big factor in this particular discussion.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Way over analyzing. Just go throw. 99,9% of us aren't ever going to win 1 dollar on the tour. You don't need all these "serve the pizza," "don't serve the pizza," "pour the coffee," "slap the bass," "choke the chicken," "slap the Slav," "tap dance with the devil," videos. Just go throw and become one with your body. Focus on one element at a time and seek efficiency then move on. Shot shaping is 125.38 times more important than distance. Knowing your discs and your own physical execution is the way to go. With that said, yes, I realize I'm giving advice about not taking advice. But this isn't a logic gotcha game. It's my opinion and I've played since the early 90's. I have never thrown more than 350' and I almost always par or better any course if I'm warmed up well. It ain't that hard.

I don't need to just go throw, I've already gone and thrown so now it's time to analyze for those of us who like to analyze and then reconcile, synthesize, and integrate the analytical knowledge with the kinesthetic feeling for a more holistic understanding.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

For a right handed backhand thrower like me, supination would be a wrist rotation clockwise.
But at the same time, an internal rotation of the shoulder, which I think is happening near release, would rotate the arm counterclockwise. That's one of many things that confuse me.

The other thing that confuses me is adjusting disc angle at the wrist. Some advocate throwing hyzer vs anhyzer with a basically vertical spine and mostly flat swing plane but changing the hand angle. Yeah, but for me that affects nose angle too.

I think you mixed up the rotation direction of the shoulder. External shoulder rotation goes much more naturally with supination.

Rotating the shoulder so that the bicep turns away from the side of the body is external shoulder rotation.