Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

Do you happen to have a video of this? I want to see if this sort of action can help me, since my swing has a bit of a swoop. Part of my problem is the disc starts to come up at the peak of my backswing.

Ezra A has a good video on it. I commented it to someone on reddit struggling with nose stuff who had a tech disc and the replied the next day that it had a pretty noticeable effect.

 

[sidewinder22]

Now here is the link for you to watch.
And pete here goes over the same info I just did. "what we think is the nose isn't the nose." Which is really good. Because what everyone teaches is the nose is incorrect.

I think part of the over arching issue is that we don't really look deep enough into some of these topics and we just kinda accept these really poor standards of explanation.

I think he does a good job of explaining this stuff and showing everyone real information vs random BS that everyone else is trying to do.

I think the big issue with this new turn the key thing is that its being presented as a fix, not necessarily part of the total picture.

So now were going to have peopl,e trying to flip discs over like that and throwing annies into the turf and going "i dont get it."

But as well, I don't really like the idea of the fix for "nose" being "Present off axis torque to push the nose down."
Nor have I ever really hard of the whole push your thumb down to pop the nose up on an air bounce either.

I don't think Pete is correct on the physics. If you just toss/spin your disc straight up in the air you can pull the disc nose up or down off axis with only the index finger on it rolling your wrist either direction.

If last point of contact is on the backside of the disc (pivots after 3 o'clock) rather than the front or side, then thumb pressing down would physically lift the nose, and fingers pulling up on backside would pull the nose down. I don't think it has to due with gyroscopic precession if you are still able to apply a force to it before leaving the hand and it begins spinning around its center of mass.

 

[Brychanus]

For someone who likes to say they care about accuracy of information you sure do use a lot of straw men…

"Flip It... The Best Cue for THROWING NOSE DOWN in Disc Golf IMO"


Literally in the title (as well as in the video) they say it is a "cue." So how is it being presented exactly? Hmmmm. Perhaps as a cue.

People throwing anhyzers into the ground are not doing so because they turned the key; they are doing so because they over rotated into the hit and their arm is coming out closer to 12 o'clock as opposed to earlier. With a closed shoulder (i.e. GG) you can turn the key for nose down.

View attachment 335370View attachment 335372
View attachment 335371
Here's GG introducing all that Off Axis Torque with his key turn. /s

There are many others that do this same motion that obviously don't have a problem with OAT. To name a few: Proctor, Eagle, AB, and Ricky.

Are you going to tell those guys to stop supinating their forearms?

As an amateur DGCR historian:

Not sure if we're talking about a distinct phenomenon from the supination in "turn the key," just wanted to bring it up if relevant. If you turn the key but break the leverage chain from shoulder to fingertips, yes, you can get nose angle issues, OAT, and launch angles issues.

There's a discussion of this near the end of the first post here:

How Simon Lizotte Throws So Far

Part 1 of 3. Simon is one of the most popular players of all time, a former world distance record holder, and as of this writing, may be primed for one of the biggest sponsor deals ever after announcing his departure from Discmania [1] [2] hot off of a 4-win season in an increasingly...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Which I took from Sidewinder or others before him. And it comes up routinely. In some forms, as long as you're not spoiling the leverage or the chain, a version of this move works.

Incidentally what grips work seems related to each player's posture, weight shift, and upstream action in the body. Mine isn't as pronounced as GG's but is developing in a similar way. If you don't have sufficiently good posture and complete leverage commiting through the release point, yes, you can throw poorly. This little snippet from Simon trying to puzzle through why he threw further than the other player at a similar speed always comes to mind (~8:23):


and Sidewinder's response to that exact issue was interesting:



I'm speaking to no one in particular here, and maybe mostly the lurkers:

I know there is a lot of confusing and sometimes conflicting information out there. Often I try to resist concluding "I cannot personally currently do it, therefore it doesn't/never works." Maybe that philosophy leads to being a little too loose sometimes, but it also allows for more hits at others.

 

[Sheep]

I do not have enough knowledge about this to add much to the discussion but I can share my own experience since this is the thing I've worked on the most during my so called disc golf "career". Nose angle that is, mostly trying to throw nose down.

I've watched a lot of videos with tips and tricks to throw nose down and not one of them have worked well. They either flat out didn't work or they felt extremely forced and awkward (or both). The pouring coffee felt very forced and tensed me up, which led to other problems while not changing the nose angle that much. For a long time I tried to force my grip in a lot of different ways to make the disc come out nose down, which also felt awkward. I had more success with angeling the side opposite to my hand down (with my grip) than I did pouring coffee, this at least didn't feel as tense and awkward.

What worked best for me other than simply the process of trial and error was to think about the nose as a point inbetween what is commonly referred to as the nose and the point opposite of my hand. IE much like described in Sheep's initial post. I then just think about wanting to get that point of the disc down a bit and my body pretty much does the rest.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that none of the commonly taught tips and tricks worked for me and in the end it was mostly just figuring out what I really wanted to do and then just do it.

All shared knowledge is valuable. That's why we have this place, It doesn't mean you need to be a coach or expert to share your experience. Don't let my bold speaking manor scare you from sharing what works for you so we can all learn. =)

You're grumpy because you care. It's not a bad thing but it would probably make it easier for you to just have a mental category to file the click bait youtubers into.

You don't need to compete with them, but you could and it would require frequent posting AND some click bait.

I could talk a lot of shit about a lot of coaches and I do with sidewinder frequently but at the end of the day I'm not a coach and I just throw for fun or occasionally to win someone's lunch money.

I get how it could be stressful in your situation but there actually is an opportunity right now with the saturated online coach sphere. You could be the official grumpy guy who refutes so much of the click bait bullshit and make that your niche.

Have you not seen my video's? haha. I just rant about topics people say dumb things about. It's fantastic, I love it and I do it for myself. Cause its funny. Nobody seems to care and they dont get any traction, but that's alright, cause I had a good time making video's. Like my video on foot faults. I love that one. Actually put effort into making it too.

Obligatory Feldberg form concept photo.
View attachment 335365

Sorry, I'm aware how lame that was. Not about the lean though, I love Feldy's form.

Always points for Feldberg references.

The reality for me is: minimizing nose-up angle did little to fix my throws. I think people should chase that if they have other problems solved, as a better use of their time.

Always a case of having to have some level of standard before fixing other things.
But also, a reflection into coaching. Which in, when getting help, the coach needs to identify the root cause of the issue, not apply bandaids over top.

Some peoples nose angle issues are in their x-step, or their backswing. You gotta find it and address that. That's the biggest issue with to many gimmick video's too. You go "oh I have that problem." So you start trying to fix it with their method. But... that was never your issue in the first place.
It's tough. And I think that people forget that there is a baseline when they watch some of these video's. But I think its also important if you're making content to roll in and be like "hey, this assumes you already have basic mechanics down."

But.. Then on top of a bit of self reflection of people out there who play. They "think" they have good mechanics. and.. its not. So no amount of special sauce helps.

I don't think Pete is correct on the physics. If you just toss/spin your disc straight up in the air you can pull the disc nose up or down off axis with only the index finger on it rolling your wrist either direction.

If last point of contact is on the backside of the disc (pivots after 3 o'clock) rather than the front or side, then thumb pressing down would physically lift the nose, and fingers pulling up on backside would pull the nose down. I don't think it has to due with gyroscopic precession if you are still able to apply a force to it before leaving the hand and it begins spinning around its center of mass.

So, I actually have some slow motion video of this. But the problem is I don't know what I was doing to cause it. You can see the disc leave my hand nose down, and immediately stabilize to a nose up flight. I spent hours on this project filming and ended up walking away with waaaaay more questions than answers. And I have not had a chance to re-visit the project. I need to get a shorter lens for the high speed camera.

Though if we look at Feldberg when he talks about nose angle stuff. He says the pinky finger controls the nose angle. Which, honestly, how I putt nose down is with my pinky.

I'm speaking to no one in particular here, and maybe mostly the lurkers:

I know there is a lot of confusing and sometimes conflicting information out there. Often I try to resist concluding "I cannot personally currently do it, therefore it doesn't/never works." Maybe that philosophy leads to being a little too loose sometimes, but it also allows for more hits at others.

It's about trying to break down the conflicting information, figure out why it actually works vs just assuming the magic. I don't really think this turn the key thing has a whole lot to do with putting off axis torque on the disc to force a nose down angle. But I'm more curious to figure out what its actually changing in the follow through that's removing whatever opposing off axis torque on nose up throws.

There is a lot going on with the disc release, and. Well, My main feeling about it is simply the title of this. "lets just make stuff up."
Someone figured out some thing to help them essentially remove a bad mechanic from the throw, but in turn are looking at it as a "fix all" for everyone else having that issue.

And, I'm also sitting looking at it going "yeah, but you're ignoring like 40 other things that are more important before you flip discs over your hand."

 

[Brychanus]

Though if we look at Feldberg when he talks about nose angle stuff. He says the pinky finger controls the nose angle. Which, honestly, how I putt nose down is with my pinky.



It's about trying to break down the conflicting information, figure out why it actually works vs just assuming the magic. I don't really think this turn the key thing has a whole lot to do with putting off axis torque on the disc to force a nose down angle. But I'm more curious to figure out what its actually changing in the follow through that's removing whatever opposing off axis torque on nose up throws.

There is a lot going on with the disc release, and. Well, My main feeling about it is simply the title of this. "lets just make stuff up."
Someone figured out some thing to help them essentially remove a bad mechanic from the throw, but in turn are looking at it as a "fix all" for everyone else having that issue.

And, I'm also sitting looking at it going "yeah, but you're ignoring like 40 other things that are more important before you flip discs over your hand."

This is fair IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I see why you get frustrated. I just generally try to focus on the content. I worry that DGCR turns away a lot of people when the average emotional temperature is hot.


TL;DR: there's simply no magic to be found and you need to learn what works best for you and your body. It's easier with a good and open minded coach.


E.g. Feldy pinky control is one technique and I figured out how to do a version of it with my putts and upshots before it influenced my drives. Then after more work on my drives I learned other things that helped control nose angle and launch angle, but they need to work together well in leverage or you get weak or poor/collapsing arms and pockets. Shifting back to 2 finger grips for a bit was useful there (and whenever I first make a form change I warm up again) because I could learn about making the move as long as possible as leveraged as possible (which is often a failure point in most developing players' form no matter how else they move).

The GG style move through the release started to work better for me again after SW kept nudging my posture in a certain direction and it is becoming by far the lowest effort/highest power and control potential (for me, and in the context of the rest of how I move), so I default to it for driving form work now. But if I had started the random thrower on the street there it could have horrendously backfired for one reason or another. I would never just assume it's the "right" move for someone without more context. I can also definitely confirm that if something is out of sequence or leverage or gripped poorly, the disc will come out with too much OAT or saw off the end of the swing or the nose won't come around correctly, etc.

People who use the grip it looks like you use yourself tend to move more like Kyle Klein - I also found that it can be a compensatory move people develop for spin shifting on a vertical axis or having too-flat form to one extent or another. All depends on that context and the player, possibly. Once I learned more about weight shifting mechanics here and could do them myself, it became clearer which grips could and couldn't work on that context.

Incidentally I explored Proctor grip after talking at length with Josh at OT. I found it still involved the late supination and provided a lot of leverage, and worked a little better for me when I tried Taylor's advice to focus more on getting the leg out in front for the brace and focus on the "stop" of center of mass behind it. But I overcompensated and got my weight too far back again and posture out of whack, then Sidewinder got the posture fixed, and then it was a little easier to work on the other things. I realized that it was possible for it to be both true that you need center of mass forward of the step like walking (postural) and also true that you need to "stop" the CoM to brace and through (I would just add "learn to redirect force smoothly up the chain" to that). They do not really disagree as much as it appears if you use the appropriate frame of reference. I know what SW means after learning from him for 2 years mostly online, and it was much easier to understand what Taylor was saying when I spent 90 minutes with him and looking at Heimburg's mocap wireframe, then observing and thinking more about other players' forms afterwards (still need to ask him to look at more mocaps to see if I am right about my new "compromise"). Personally, I still use what I learned from proctor style, but it is more subdued in the context of how my form changed after that, and having SW help me find motion that was still powerful but low effort. Exploring each extreme viewpoint taught me something.

Why did I write all that? I don't have to think about any of this anymore. Each point of view and experiment has taught me something. I would never generalize all of it to any one other person. The simplifying lesson is that no matter how many videos you watch or how many words you read or write, Nike's marketing department had it right. I get better as an instructor the more space I explore even when it doesn't help me personally. Then when I work with people live I do a lot less talking and a lot more showing and we solve the experiment together. I stay engaged because I never stop learning. That's the fun part for me.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

You don't need to compete with them, but you could and it would require frequent posting AND some click bait.

It doesn't even require click bate, helpful and relatable content is enough. Take Sam Sulek for example. The most boring titles, long unedited videos, just being himself. Titles like "Winter Bulk Day 1 - Legs" and these titles increments up to 138 and each video has 100s of thousands of views, lol.

 

[Casey 1988]

I don't have to think about any of this anymore. Each point of view and experiment has taught me something. I would never generalize all of it to any one other person. The simplifying lesson is that no matter how many videos you watch or how many words you read or write, Nike's marketing department had it right. I get better as an instructor the more space I explore even when it doesn't help me personally. Then when I work with people live I do a lot less talking and a lot more showing and we solve the experiment together. I stay engaged because I never stop learning. That's the fun part for me.

Yes, I found a small hop on mega power throws the way some Asian players or smaller players tend to use is works for me as more forward as a hop that is not high vertical but more in a forward direction because I lose distance otherwise. I found my Idea in 2010s and found immediately after some people who were Asian playing first layout of Emporium Open of one hole on first year of Pro tour in 2015 where they did hop step.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

My 2 cents. NOT FACTS. The wrist/arm whatever is going to roll over to protect itself. This happens automatically. To throw nose down you need to teach the body that it is going to be okay if it rolls over clockwise rather than counterclockwise.

 

[Sheep]

TL;DR: there's simply no magic to be found and you need to learn what works best for you and your body. It's easier with a good and open minded coach.

This is what I've been trying to say. What I have been saying.

This whole Nose/form thing is about getting your form to work best for "your" body.

This is why copying pro form is bad, your body doesn't bend like theirs or move like theirs. Every body/joint is different and we have to figure out what allows our bodies to do what we need to do within some level of reason.

Thats why gimmicks and tricks are such bad things. If you're posture and swing are not half way decent to start with, it doesn't matter.

It's like saying "try this trick to joint boards together, it never fails" but nobody ever ran the boards through a jointer, and you're trying to glue 2 live edge boards together.
You have to start from a good base for tricks to work.

E.g. Feldy pinky control is one technique and I figured out how to do a version of it with my putts and upshots before it influenced my drives. Then after more work on my drives I learned other things that helped control nose angle and launch angle, but they need to work together well in leverage or you get weak or poor/collapsing arms and pockets. Shifting back to 2 finger grips for a bit was useful there (and whenever I first make a form change I warm up again) because I could learn about making the move as long as possible as leveraged as possible (which is often a failure point in most developing players' form no matter how else they move).

The GG style move through the release started to work better for me again after SW kept nudging my posture in a certain direction and it is becoming by far the lowest effort/highest power and control potential (for me, and in the context of the rest of how I move), so I default to it for driving form work now. But if I had started the random thrower on the street there it could have horrendously backfired for one reason or another. I would never just assume it's the "right" move for someone without more context. I can also definitely confirm that if something is out of sequence or leverage or gripped poorly, the disc will come out with too much OAT or saw off the end of the swing or the nose won't come around correctly, etc.

People who use the grip it looks like you use yourself tend to move more like Kyle Klein - I also found that it can be a compensatory move people develop for spin shifting on a vertical axis or having too-flat form to one extent or another. All depends on that context and the player, possibly. Once I learned more about weight shifting mechanics here and could do them myself, it became clearer which grips could and couldn't work on that context.

Incidentally I explored Proctor grip after talking at length with Josh at OT. I found it still involved the late supination and provided a lot of leverage, and worked a little better for me when I tried Taylor's advice to focus more on getting the leg out in front for the brace and focus on the "stop" of center of mass behind it. But I overcompensated and got my weight too far back again and posture out of whack, then Sidewinder got the posture fixed, and then it was a little easier to work on the other things. I realized that it was possible for it to be both true that you need center of mass forward of the step like walking (postural) and also true that you need to "stop" the CoM to brace and through (I would just add "learn to redirect force smoothly up the chain" to that). They do not really disagree as much as it appears if you use the appropriate frame of reference. I know what SW means after learning from him for 2 years mostly online, and it was much easier to understand what Taylor was saying when I spent 90 minutes with him and looking at Heimburg's mocap wireframe, then observing and thinking more about other players' forms afterwards (still need to ask him to look at more mocaps to see if I am right about my new "compromise"). Personally, I still use what I learned from proctor style, but it is more subdued in the context of how my form changed after that, and having SW help me find motion that was still powerful but low effort. Exploring each extreme viewpoint taught me something.

Why did I write all that? I don't have to think about any of this anymore. Each point of view and experiment has taught me something. I would never generalize all of it to any one other person. The simplifying lesson is that no matter how many videos you watch or how many words you read or write, Nike's marketing department had it right. I get better as an instructor the more space I explore even when it doesn't help me personally. Then when I work with people live I do a lot less talking and a lot more showing and we solve the experiment together. I stay engaged because I never stop learning. That's the fun part for me.

I think about things after I leave my desk. "should I go back?" nah. lets just let it stew in there and let people talk. So I'm glad you responded on that. These subjects are interesting to start.

But I was thinking about the whole flip your wrist over thing a bit more. Because as I explained in my video its important for us to use good grip to start with that aligns with our posture. And I didn't even get into swing planes that also align with our posture which can help us throw nose down also. Such as a more waist line throw vs a high chest throw. Those positions can make a difference in your bodies ability to get the disc out nose down.

And your comment in here about the brace changes. People don't quite fathom this, but your nose angle can really be as simple as a brace change, because you're not bracing good enough, your over extending your arm in a way that is causing you to throw nose up because your swing posture fails.

I'm stuck on posture.

Oh yeah, flippy stuff.

I was watching a good throw from Ricky last night too. and his hand follow through is SOO clean. There is no supponation, or flipping his wrist over.




It's just getting your body to work with the swing.

oh yes, the wrist flip thing. Getting distracted.

I was thinking about it with stuff like feldberg said, the way I putt and stuff.
The wrist flip deal is basically a que for people who roll their wrist down in the throw, or don't quite get their wrist in a hinge position for the proper swing plane. So if you really think about what happens if you "turn the key"
The most aggressive finger on the disc when you're going to do that is the pinky.

Ehh, I duno. Just random thoughts.
I thought my migraine issue was gone here this last week, and 12 hours is a lot right now to deal with these. It's going away though finally. Course work day today. and. I need to leave in an hour.

 

[Sheep]

It doesn't even require click bate, helpful and relatable content is enough. Take Sam Sulek for example. The most boring titles, long unedited videos, just being himself. Titles like "Winter Bulk Day 1 - Legs" and these titles increments up to 138 and each video has 100s of thousands of views, lol.

That's because 80% of the views are not disc golfers.

 

[Sheep]

My 2 cents. NOT FACTS. The wrist/arm whatever is going to roll over to protect itself. This happens automatically. To throw nose down you need to teach the body that it is going to be okay if it rolls over clockwise rather than counterclockwise.

Yes and no.
It's not about teaching your body that its "okay"

Its about listening to your body tell you no, and work around it correctly, so you don't end up like Calvin and others who have these nasty elbow injuries because of bad form.

The idea of getting to the hit and suddenly rolling your wrist over like you're trying to start a car is incredibly un natural unless you've just trained to do it from a younger age and your body adapted.

Secondly, it will cause you to drop your elbow, which will cause other throw issues. And possible elbow strain. The elbow is meant to bend 1 direction, not multiples.

But, to your point.
We can teach the body to not have a bad flinch response which is what happens to some. Where they roll their hand under.
But these responses come from previous activities really, not necessarily from protecting our bodies.

It's really natural to flick your palm down when you wanna flick your wrist.
Its not natural to want to come over the top when doing that, nor is it very kind to your elbow.

 

[Sewer bill]

Bold claim with no proof to back it up.

They are youtubers they aren't charities.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just had some pros throw my TechDisc at the Austin open.

Albert tamm and mason ford were able to get 2x more nose down than their usual (just a handful of throws) when I asked them to try the turn the key cue (supination flip) with exaggeration when compared to their normal which was maintaining a pour the coffee the whole time. Perhaps when Albert throws higher launch angles for big distance lines he does something else in his form to get more nose down though.

Jake H was able to get -5 nose a decent amount of the time already and turn the key didn't give him easier access to that much nose down. He has a very low reach back and thinks about cranking over in a reverse swoop style to get his nose down (like the ezra aderhold nose down vid) while also pouring the coffee. He puts his thumb just deeper than the rim so he can press into the flight plate and deform it but feel the rim on the right side of his thumb.

Jake H uses a very vertical brace force when wanting to throw harder and referenced some stat about baseball pitchers exerting a lot more than bodyweight force into their front leg. Jake also power grips very tightly the entire sequence.

Jake was saying "how the hell does Gannon get so much spin". I think it was Mason who said I think there's a rhythm to it (the wrist) with some extension in the peak of the reach back, and then flexion into the power pocket & pointed out that you can see some wrist extension at the peak of the reach back of Anthony b.

When Jake tried curling his wrist into a deep power pocket, he got more spin.
Jake uses a left knee down to the ground cue on forehands. And gets as low as 2-3 wobble with a middle finger on top of index fingernail with index finger moderately bent grip.

Mason Ford does baseball training exercises and pitching and batting drills. He also uses an initially loose fan grip on all of his drives, but when trying power grip with the TechDisc, he got more nose down more easily but surprisingly similar spin.

Albert thinks and feels more of a straight line arm pull style and Jake h seems to as well (didn't directly ask him but the way he talked about his throw thoughts pointed in that direction).

I suspect straight line pulling is a common cue among pros. In person a lot of their practice phantom throws on the tee looked like they were emphasizing straight line pulling.

I'll make a separate post in a few days with more details and the stats. Unfortunately they were testing out lots of different things and I didn't have time to separately tag it all in the moment other than grouping by who was throwing.

 

[Brychanus]

I just had some pros throw my TechDisc at the Austin open.

Albert tamm and mason ford were able to get 2x more nose down than their usual (just a handful of throws) when I asked them to try the turn the key cue (supination flip) with exaggeration when compared to their normal which was maintaining a pour the coffee the whole time. Perhaps when Albert throws higher launch angles for big distance lines he does something else in his form to get more nose down though.

Jake H was able to get -5 nose a decent amount of the time already and turn the key didn't give him easier access to that much nose down. He has a very low reach back and thinks about cranking over in a reverse swoop style to get his nose down (like the ezra aderhold nose down vid) while also pouring the coffee. He puts his thumb just deeper than the rim so he can press into the flight plate and deform it but feel the rim on the right side of his thumb.

Jake H uses a very vertical brace force when wanting to throw harder and referenced some stat about baseball pitchers exerting a lot more than bodyweight force into their front leg. Jake also power grips very tightly the entire sequence.

Jake was saying "how the hell does Gannon get so much spin". I think it was Mason who said I think there's a rhythm to it (the wrist) with some extension in the peak of the reach back, and then flexion into the power pocket & pointed out that you can see some wrist extension at the peak of the reach back of Anthony b.

When Jake tried curling his wrist into a deep power pocket, he got more spin.
Jake uses a left knee down to the ground cue on forehands. And gets as low as 2-3 wobble with a middle finger on top of index fingernail with index finger moderately bent grip.

Mason Ford does baseball training exercises and pitching and batting drills. He also uses an initially loose fan grip on all of his drives, but when trying power grip with the TechDisc, he got more nose down more easily but surprisingly similar spin.

Albert thinks and feels more of a straight line arm pull style and Jake h seems to as well (didn't directly ask him but the way he talked about his throw thoughts pointed in that direction).

I suspect straight line pulling is a common cue among pros. In person a lot of their practice phantom throws on the tee looked like they were emphasizing straight line pulling.

I'll make a separate post in a few days with more details and the stats. Unfortunately they were testing out lots of different things and I didn't have time to separately tag it all in the moment other than grouping by who was throwing.

Awesome, thanks for sharing man.

On baseball/plant leg force this post always comes to mind:

A Technical Discussion on Developing Pitching Velocity

Hey all, I found this fascinating post on reddit about pitching velocity I thought you'd enjoy. I'll transcribe it below and here's the link: https://old.reddit.com/r/Homeplate/comments/ps0lww/a_technical_discussion_on_developing_pitching/...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Note too that in MLB pitchers there has been a trend to take the forces more aggressively forward with longer strides (adding horizontal force while retaining the vertical force of striding down the mound) among people with either long bodies and/or very well-conditioned legs, to which some people attribute overall peak velocity changes in the league.

 

[koiyote]

They are youtubers they aren't charities.

Either you have just written two unrelated and correct statements or are foolishly trying to support your false suppositions with slanderous claims. Both options add nothing to a conversation in which we care about "what actually yields results."

Option 1:
They are YouTubers. Correct
They aren't charities. Correct

Both true statements but they are entirely unhelpful to the conversation at hand.

Option 2:
You tried to logically connect "they are YouTubers they aren't charities" to your earlier statement of:

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

When your Red Herring Fallacy was challenged by my response of

Bold claim with no proof to back it up.

This response seems more likely given your history of derogatory remarks, unsubstantiated claims towards Youtubers, and the conversation's context.

If this is the case you have tried to identify a causal relationship between YouTubers and an indifference to yielding results.

Your statements in this instance can be rewritten as so:

Since YouTubers aren't charities, they do not care about what works and what actually yields results.

This logic could then be applied in this way:

Since Sheep is a YouTuber, he does not care about what works and what actually yields results.

If this were true it would be problematic logically because in replying to Sheep you stated:

You're grumpy because you care.

This would disprove the causal relationship you logically tied between YouTubers and caring about results for their students.

The same would be said about Seabas22 to an even greater extent since he is making money directly from YouTube via ad revenue and is therefor even less charitable than Sheep.

I suppose you could still hold to a spectrum of charitability where the amount the YouTuber is able to care is correlated to the amount they are being paid by YouTube.

If this hypothesis were true we would have to find some way to measure "care." After finding a way to measure that you could test this hypothesis by measuring Sheep's care and Seabas22's care. The hypothesis would be proven true if you measured more care from Sheep than from Seabas22. If Seabas22 measured as more caring then the hypothesis would be proved false.

Looking forward to your clarification on this matter.

 

[koiyote]

I just had some pros throw my TechDisc at the Austin open.

Albert tamm and mason ford were able to get 2x more nose down than their usual (just a handful of throws) when I asked them to try the turn the key cue (supination flip) with exaggeration when compared to their normal which was maintaining a pour the coffee the whole time. Perhaps when Albert throws higher launch angles for big distance lines he does something else in his form to get more nose down though.

Jake H was able to get -5 nose a decent amount of the time already and turn the key didn't give him easier access to that much nose down. He has a very low reach back and thinks about cranking over in a reverse swoop style to get his nose down (like the ezra aderhold nose down vid) while also pouring the coffee. He puts his thumb just deeper than the rim so he can press into the flight plate and deform it but feel the rim on the right side of his thumb.

Jake H uses a very vertical brace force when wanting to throw harder and referenced some stat about baseball pitchers exerting a lot more than bodyweight force into their front leg. Jake also power grips very tightly the entire sequence.

Jake was saying "how the hell does Gannon get so much spin". I think it was Mason who said I think there's a rhythm to it (the wrist) with some extension in the peak of the reach back, and then flexion into the power pocket & pointed out that you can see some wrist extension at the peak of the reach back of Anthony b.

When Jake tried curling his wrist into a deep power pocket, he got more spin.
Jake uses a left knee down to the ground cue on forehands. And gets as low as 2-3 wobble with a middle finger on top of index fingernail with index finger moderately bent grip.

Mason Ford does baseball training exercises and pitching and batting drills. He also uses an initially loose fan grip on all of his drives, but when trying power grip with the TechDisc, he got more nose down more easily but surprisingly similar spin.

Albert thinks and feels more of a straight line arm pull style and Jake h seems to as well (didn't directly ask him but the way he talked about his throw thoughts pointed in that direction).

I suspect straight line pulling is a common cue among pros. In person a lot of their practice phantom throws on the tee looked like they were emphasizing straight line pulling.

I'll make a separate post in a few days with more details and the stats. Unfortunately they were testing out lots of different things and I didn't have time to separately tag it all in the moment other than grouping by who was throwing.

This is amazing information! Thanks for getting it.

It seems like the cue of turning the key / flipping the disc does work for some pros after all.

I'm not surprised at the straight line pulling cue, but it is nice to hear some confirmation of it here.

Really looking forward to your full post. Looks like there are going to be loads of feel and nerdy nuggets in there.

 

[Nick Carroll]

It's amazing to me how some cues work for some people, but not for others. Even if they have the same problem, some cues like "like a lawn mower" or "in a straight line" work for some people - or at least don't negatively affect them - and absolutely wreck others. It may be that a) natural athletes (or experienced ones) have enough of a mind-muscle connection or b) those with an intellectual understanding of body mechanics can apply the cue correctly. On the other hand, I think others get caught up in taking the cues literally, or just can't tell they're going off the rails with whatever they're doing to implement the cue.

That said, I think the solution is for coaches (or the players themselves) closely monitor how the motions are being performed before and after the cues, and offer other cues or instruction as needed. I've heard a number of pros talk about those 2 cues I mention above over the years, and I just think they were helped by them, which is why they passed them along. For myself, both of those were probably the 2 most destructive cues I ever tried. The lawn mower one actually hurt my development, though initially I thought it helped me. The straight line one I was never able to reproduce, so I discarded after awhile.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

It's amazing to me how some cues work for some people, but not for others. Even if they have the same problem, some cues like "like a lawn mower" or "in a straight line" work for some people - or at least don't negatively affect them - and absolutely wreck others. It may be that a) natural athletes (or experienced ones) have enough of a mind-muscle connection or b) those with an intellectual understanding of body mechanics can apply the cue correctly. On the other hand, I think others get caught up in taking the cues literally, or just can't tell they're going off the rails with whatever they're doing to implement the cue.

That said, I think the solution is for coaches (or the players themselves) closely monitor how the motions are being performed before and after the cues, and offer other cues or instruction as needed. I've heard a number of pros talk about those 2 cues I mention above over the years, and I just think they were helped by them, which is why they passed them along. For myself, both of those were probably the 2 most destructive cues I ever tried. The lawn mower one actually hurt my development, though initially I thought it helped me. The straight line one I was never able to reproduce, so I discarded after awhile.

For me certain cues have made other cues make sense to my body later. The lawnmower (which always seemed bad) makes sense after a couple years of 'ok wtf am I actually supposed to be doing with my upper body'.

 

[koiyote]

It's amazing to me how some cues work for some people, but not for others. Even if they have the same problem, some cues like "like a lawn mower" or "in a straight line" work for some people - or at least don't negatively affect them - and absolutely wreck others. It may be that a) natural athletes (or experienced ones) have enough of a mind-muscle connection or b) those with an intellectual understanding of body mechanics can apply the cue correctly. On the other hand, I think others get caught up in taking the cues literally, or just can't tell they're going off the rails with whatever they're doing to implement the cue.

That said, I think the solution is for coaches (or the players themselves) closely monitor how the motions are being performed before and after the cues, and offer other cues or instruction as needed. I've heard a number of pros talk about those 2 cues I mention above over the years, and I just think they were helped by them, which is why they passed them along. For myself, both of those were probably the 2 most destructive cues I ever tried. The lawn mower one actually hurt my development, though initially I thought it helped me. The straight line one I was never able to reproduce, so I discarded after awhile.

I think that's exactly it. There is a reason these cues get passed down and it's because they worked for someone somewhere.

Re: coaching
This is all coaching is basically. Say something, see what they do. If it works, amazing. If it doesn't work plug something else in.

This is partly why I'm so confused about the hate for YouTube coaches in here. Do people really think Overthrow just made up a random cue for nose down and immediately went out and filmed a video that second. Even when the guy is showing you in the video that the cue is moving the disc more nose down they'll just deny it altogether even though it is happening right in front of their eyes with TechDisc data and all.

He's literally showing you the cue working and the conclusion (and reason this thread was created) was to show that he "made up" a cue that didn't work.

Even if a pro uses a cue to success some in here are going to write it off because it doesn't fit in their preconceived framework. I'm willing to bet that OP doesn't ever acknowledge that this cue is a good cue. He might one day say something like, "Well yeah. It can work for some people" but probably won't ever admit that it is a good cue even if supplied with a mountain of evidence.

Cues are "conditioned connections with thoughts or behaviors." That is only dangerous if a mental cue connects with the wrong thought or behavior.

I obviously don't write that for your benefit as you understand that already, but I think some DGCR people don't understand coaching versus understanding biomechanics.

I'm newer here, but that reality struck me very early. I see that DGCR could be really valuable in learning the biomechanics (which is why I'm here) with its repository of information, but some of the more vocal people have their fingers in their ears while screaming obscenities at some of the people that are actually out there coaching.

 

[Sewer bill]

Either you have just written two unrelated and correct statements or are foolishly trying to support your false suppositions with slanderous claims. Both options add nothing to a conversation in which we care about "what actually yields results."

Option 1:
They are YouTubers. Correct
They aren't charities. Correct

Both true statements but they are entirely unhelpful to the conversation at hand.

Option 2:
You tried to logically connect "they are YouTubers they aren't charities" to your earlier statement of:


When your Red Herring Fallacy was challenged by my response of


This response seems more likely given your history of derogatory remarks, unsubstantiated claims towards Youtubers, and the conversation's context.

If this is the case you have tried to identify a causal relationship between YouTubers and an indifference to yielding results.

Your statements in this instance can be rewritten as so:

Since YouTubers aren't charities, they do not care about what works and what actually yields results.

This logic could then be applied in this way:

Since Sheep is a YouTuber, he does not care about what works and what actually yields results.

If this were true it would be problematic logically because in replying to Sheep you stated:

This would disprove the causal relationship you logically tied between YouTubers and caring about results for their students.

The same would be said about Seabas22 to an even greater extent since he is making money directly from YouTube via ad revenue and is therefor even less charitable than Sheep.

I suppose you could still hold to a spectrum of charitability where the amount the YouTuber is able to care is correlated to the amount they are being paid by YouTube.

If this hypothesis were true we would have to find some way to measure "care." After finding a way to measure that you could test this hypothesis by measuring Sheep's care and Seabas22's care. The hypothesis would be proven true if you measured more care from Sheep than from Seabas22. If Seabas22 measured as more caring then the hypothesis would be proved false.

Looking forward to your clarification on this matter.

They both obviously care and I don't know sheep well enough to infer much beyond his demeanor reflecting his passion. Neither of them make any noteworthy amount of money on youtube whatever the dollar amount is. They also aren't selling merch.